Unsuccessfully spinning chaos

Iraq is unraveling

A barrage of car bombs, mortar attacks and missiles battered the Shiite Muslim slum of Sadr City on Thursday afternoon, killing around 200 people and injuring as many more in the single deadliest assault on Iraqi civilians since the start of the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.

The highly orchestrated attacks on the stronghold of anti-American cleric Moqtada al-Sadr threatened to unleash yet another cycle of reprisal killings and push the country closer to all-out civil war. The attacks, targeting the heart of Baghdad’s Shiite community, seem designed to stoke the sectarian rage gripping Iraq.

Even as mourners gathered Friday for a heavily guarded funeral procession the attacks continued. Local authorities reported that 17 people died when a car bomb exploded near an auto dealership in Tal Afar, 260 miles northwest of Baghdad. The Associated Press reported that several mortar rounds exploded near the Abu Hanifa mosque, a site important to Sunni Muslims.

…and conservatives would have us believe it’s still not that bad.

I wrote in June that based on the data at that time, the murder rate in Iraq outside of Baghdad is about the same as American cities like Chicago, Philadelphia and Milwaukee. With the current numbers, it looks like that would still be true.

A consensus seems to have developed that Iraq is a disaster because of out-of-control sectarian violence. That consensus is driving proposals to change our policy in Iraq, perhaps in the direction of a pull-out that could lead to truly cataclysmic violence. So I think it makes sense to step back and get a more realistic picture of the level of what is happening in Iraq: violent? Yes. A disaster comparable to a civil war? No.

We’re still debating the comparisons between Iraq and U.S. cities? Hasn’t this been debunked enough?

In recent months, we’ve seen one far-right blogger compare Iraq to Philadelphia, another compare Iraq to Milwaukee, and one far-right House member compare Iraq to DC. They’re all terribly, embarrassingly wrong.

For one thing, these supporters of the war just have their numbers wrong. TP recently noted that Iraq is “22 times more violent than Washington, D.C.”

For another, the comparison itself is misguided. Kieran Healy did a terrific job of tearing the whole argument to shreds at Crooked Timber, and this portion stood out.

This is why comparisons to death rates in civilian settings — even comparatively violent ones — are misguided. Anyone who thinks that someone walking around Philly is more likely to be violently attacked than a marine out on patrol in Baghdad is out of their mind. Moreover, troops on patrol are kitted out with protective gear, travel in well-organized groups, and have guns. And yet they still die in large numbers. Crude comparisons of death rates across very different settings mask big differentials in exposure to violent incidents, ignore fundamental differences in the structure of those incidents, and — in the case of military fatalities — ignore the huge improvements in field medicine that (according to data for 2004) allowed the ratio of wounded to killed soldiers in Iraq to be more than two and a half times what it was in Vietnam. Bear in mind, too, that all of what I’ve said so far ignores the elephant in the room, which is that the death rates in the article refer exclusively to U.S. forces on active duty in the whole of Iraq and not to regular Iraqi civilians. Contrary to what you may have heard, these people are not magically immune to the effects of car bombs, death squads, or suicide bombers. […]

[T]he acid test is quite straightforward. Would you — can you? — take a commercial flight to Baghdad tomorrow, get a taxi from the airport to the city, stay at a local hotel, see some sights and eat out at a decent restaurant without being in fear of your life? What about Philadelphia?

That’s easy enough to understand, isn’t it?

I’ve read these murder rate comparison before. As I recall I checked into them and found them bogus. But I don’t remember the details.

Does someone else?

You can’t tell me that life in DC is somehow comparable to that in Baghdad.

  • Bushites and Republican’ts are the stupidist people in the world.

    Gah! That we are in their hands to two more years is terrifying.

  • Talk about painting a turd. To idiots like this I would say: All right fuckwit, you can spend a month in DC. Then we’ll drop you off in this supposed oasis of “not that bad, considering” in Iraq for a month, then we’ll ask your opinion.

    Another thing such drivelings ignore: The lack of electricity, oil shortages, food shortages, money shortages, job shortages…It is all a long winded echo of Iron Babs Bush’s infamous line about Katrina evacuees huddling in the Astrodome. They didn’t have much to start with so “This is working out quite well for them.” In Iraq the talking point is life under Hussein and his band of thugs was worse for the average citizen than countless bands of thugs, random explosions, foreign soldiers plus all of the other shit they now have to endure.

    Then there are the sometimes unspoken provisos that the Iraqis would never have kicked Hussein’s arse on their own and any Iraqi who complains about losing his job and half his family is too dumb and/or ungrateful to appreciate “democracy.”

    Screw ’em. These guys belong in the same group as the Creationists, Flat Earthers and other reality-phobic jackasses.

  • Bush’s Mission Accomplished flight suit moment sinks deeper and deeper into irony as it becomes evident that the mission is clearly impossible.

  • It sure would be nice to see some stats that dont compare apples and oranges and comparisons based on stats that have not been verified. Both sides are doing it.

    I havent heard of any other study that confirms the 601K number.
    Stats are so easily used for obfuscation that neither side can seem to resist.

    Bagdad is hell. No one denies that. The Kurds are doing quite well(as long as Turkey stays out). No one denies that. As for the rest of the country? Where are the 100K a month that are leaving from. If primarily Bagdad, that number has less impact.

    If America is hustled into withdrawal , the bloodletting rises exponentially, the whole region sinks into war, the world economy collapses, and it turns out that the violence was virtually all in Bagdad, the left is toast.

    Be careful what you wish for.

  • push the country closer to all-out civil war

    Can someone explain to me what the difference between “all-out civil war” is and what is currently happening in Iraq? I truly don’t see a meaningful distinction. Is it because each side (sides?) doesn’t have a set of uniforms and flags that are clearly different?

  • “Can someone explain to me what the difference between “all-out civil war” is and what is currently happening in Iraq?” – Edo

    There are still Sunnis in the Government? I don’t know what the difference would be. In our Civil War you could probably move around fairly easily if you avoided the armies, which were relatively compact things. In Iraq today most of the country is a death trap. I think it is actually worse there than it was here.

    Of course there are probably some 20th century civil wars which were worse than Iraq is now. But I suspect the Iraqis will get there soon.

  • If America is hustled into withdrawal , the bloodletting rises exponentially, the whole region sinks into war, the world economy collapses, and it turns out that the violence was virtually all in Bagdad, the left is toast.

    That’s a whole lot of ifs. I’ll take those odds, especially since I doubt you can point me to a reason that having US troops still in the country is helping.

    Plus, the left is toast!? Of course, because George Bush and the Right didn’t do anything to cause any of those problems…if they do occur as you say. Friday in a almost empty office, and I have to wonder whether you are just cynically “predicting the future” or really believe that the left will be toast because you disagree with withdrawing troops.

    If you do disagree with withdrawing troops, what’s your plan? What’s going to save Iraq? You can’t say “I don’t know,” because you have already discounted one plan, so you have to have an idea of what would work(can’t just hang on to what won’t work).

  • Lance,

    There are still Sunnis in the Government?

    that’s actually a pretty good point. I suppose when one side completely pulls out of the “government” then it will be an “official” civil war. I agree that it can get worse, but not that much worse.

  • Edo,

    A civil war is when ignorant American southerners start a withering fight based on their belief of ethnic superiority.

    The situation in Iraq is completely different.

  • If America is hustled into withdrawal , the bloodletting rises exponentially, the whole region sinks into war, the world economy collapses, and it turns out that the violence was virtually all in Bagdad, the left is toast.

    Be careful what you wish for.

    Comment by Michael7843853 G-F/O in 08! —

    Excuse me Michael, I am a little unclear as to your point. I think you have your sequence a little wrong. I am afraid it will be a little more like this: 1) The blood letting rises. 2) The whole region sinks into war. 3) America withdraws because they have no other real option.

    As for the world ecconomy collapsing? It may not be fun going through this, but I think an ecconomic collapse is quite a stretch. And the violence being virtually all in Bagdad? You might want to do some more reading.

    The left is toast? The whole country is toast becaues of these insane neo-con ideas. This is not a game; there are real people dying everyday, and not just in Bagdad.

  • There are still Sunnis in the Government?

    that’s actually a pretty good point. I suppose when one side completely pulls out of the “government” then it will be an “official” civil war. I agree that it can get worse, but not that much worse. — Edo, @12

    Give them half a chance and there might be *only* Sunnis left in that “government”. This from ThinkProgress:

    “Radical anti-U.S. Shi’ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr’s political bloc, a key player in Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki’s government, threatened on Friday to withdraw from the cabinet and parliament if Maliki met U.S. President George W. Bush as planned in Jordan next week.”

    Makes you wonder why the meeting is to be in Jordan in the first place. Could it be because Amman is safer than, say, DC or Baghdad? Also makes you wonder how Moqtada would have behaved if US hadn’t decided to close his newspaper…

    TAIO, @6. Well, it’s because they worship the wrong god. Had they been Christians, nobody could have ambushed them as they left the mosque. As for the militia standing around doing nothing — we trained them well.

  • How many car bombs have gone off in Philly?

    Or how many militias armed to the teeth are patrolling neighborhoods in Milwakee?

    And how many buildings in DC have taken direct fire from an Abrams tank?

    I must not pay really good attention to the news.

  • Michael, if you want to be taken seriously, don’t say dumb things.

    a crazy right-wing commentator completely abuses statistics to make a completely false point.

    this is nothing at all analogous to a careful study that offered a broad range of possible solutions and whose methodology is clear and right out there in the open.

    meanwhile, the situation in iraq is toast, for crissake, just as the left predicted….

  • For what it’s worth, a commenter at TP recently tried to compare California murder rates to Iraq on a day when there were 112 killed across the country. So I did some checking. California had 2,503 murders in 2005. A daily rate of 112 in Iraq comes to an annual figure of 40,880. Not to mention that California has 36 million people, compared to Iraq’s 26 million. There’s no comparison.

  • Just a question for the withdrawniks: What ensuing circumstances after our precipitous departure could lead you to regret that decision? A million dead? Several million? Nothing?

    Are opponents, myself included, of starting the war given a moral free pass from responsibility for the slaughter after departure due to the fact that Bush started the war?

    We have to deal with the world as it is now, even though it was not of our making.

    I refuse to accept the assertion that because I dont have a bullet-proof solution to this quagmire, that I have no right to point out an extreme moral dilemma when I see one.

  • Are opponents, myself included, of starting the war given a moral free pass from responsibility for the slaughter after departure due to the fact that Bush started the war?

    We have to deal with the world as it is now, even though it was not of our making. — Michael7843853, @20

    Do you *really* think that the slaughter after our departure is going to be *worse* than it is now? If you think that American (military) presence has any effect on Iraqis’ internecine butchery, you have bought into the ‘pubs’ meme.

    The Shiites and the Sunnis don’t give a flying duck about American presence; they ignore it and happily slaughter one another, giving vent to something they’ve always wanted to do but were unable to, due to Saddam’s totalitarian regime. It makes little difference to the Iraqis whether we’re there or not — we’re not able to stop the slaughter while we’re there — but they’re pinning their hopes on it subsiding once we get the hell out. They may be wrong, they may be right — nobody knows.

    In the meantime, *all* that American presence in Iraq is doing is adding oil to the fire. If we’re redundant — either way — as far as Iraqis are concerned, we might as well get the troops back before the entire army is decimated. Since the situation is “damned if you do and damned if you don’t”, we should concentrate on saving as many American lives as we can. And support — *financially* — the reconstruction of what’s left of Iraq after we’ve admitted or lack of responsibility in starting this “adventure”.

  • “What ensuing circumstances after our precipitous departure could lead you to regret that decision? A million dead? Several million? Nothing?” – Michael7843853

    Would you accept that nothing that happens after we withdraw would bother me? The Iraqi people have said it alright by them if insurgents kill Americans. I don’t feel a lot of duty to keeping them alive, especially as it is they who are making things impossible in Iraq. People point out the likely ethnic cleansing that will follow our withdrawal, but this is incorrect. The Arabs in Iraq are Arabs, the cleansing with be Sectarian, not Ethnic.

    As libra says, they don’t give a flying duck for our presence. Our absence might wake them up to the hell they are creating for themselves.

    I feel more for the victums in Darfur and even there I don’t support giving more than logistical aid to a intervention.

    On “Inside Washington” last night (taped Wendsday) I was surprised to hear Charles Kruathammer proposed, word for word, the K&K withdrawal plan I’ve mentioned here before. Pull our Active Army Forces in Iraq back up into Kurdistan and down into Kuwait (send the National Guard home). As he said, the Kurds deserve our protection. The Iraqi Arabs deserve only our contempt.

    We should of course make clear to all Iraqis that we reserve the right to destroy al Qaeda infrastructure and kill al Qaeda members on Iraqi soil anytime we wish.

  • It shouldn’t be forgotten that D.C.’s murder rate was and is a source of serious concern, and that, at it’s peak, the city (or at least its poorer sections) was described as suffering from a “bloodbath” in the popular press (e.g., the gruesome knickname “murder Capital.”) Most of the risk however, is and was limited to the city’s poorest areas; the Mall and environs have long constituted a kind of de facto green zone

    The murder rate for the U.S. nationwide is on the order of 5.5 per 100,000. No doubt this is closer to the level of violence that the typical D.C. tourist or congressperson is used to experiencing.

  • It shouldn’t be forgotten that D.C.’s murder rate was and remains a serious concern, and that, at its peak, the city was seen as suffering from a “bloodbath” in the popular press (e.g., the gruesome knickname “murder Capital”). The violence was and is generally restricted to the city’s poorer sections; the Mall and environs have long constituted a sort of de facto Green zone.

    Nationwide the U.S. homicide rate is on the order of 5.5. per 100,000. This, no doubt, is closer to (though still much higher than) the violence level that a tourist or congressperson could expect to experience in D.C. and its affluent suburbs.

  • What I have been hearing for a long time now is that we will stay in Iraq to fight the the insurgency and that if the the country falls into a civl war, we cannot stay as this would require the U.S. to side with one of the ethnic groups. So we are again down to debating what defines a civilwar/insurgency/whatever. For years the adminstration wouldn’t even admit that there was an insurgency in Iraq and now it appears that almost all of the 200+ daily killings taking place in Bagdad are from sectarian violence (i.e. civil war). So yes, I say that when 100s of people daily are being killed for no other reason than what tribe or sect they are from, that it constitutes a civl war. Next we will be debating what the defintion of genocide is I guess. The other day, Gen. Abbizad stated that our tactics need to switch now to training the Iraqi miltary and police forces. This will probably be the solution given by the Baker comission as well. I was reading the Washington Post today and they reported that Sunni neighborhood groups were forming small militias and ordered to shoot every armed man they see except for Americans, including the police force as they were responsable for a lot of the mosque attacks taking place recently. So were now going to train a predominatly Shite Army and police force and teach them how to more efficently kill people? That sounds like a recipe for success! Yeah, I guess a troop withdrawn does seem totally stupid after all.

  • michael, we don’t have the right to work out your moral problems in iraq. our departure could make things worse; it could make things better; it could be completely irrelevant given the sectarian hatred and chaos that has been unleashed.

    the purpose of american national security policy is to improve the national security of america, not to enable you to feel good and your assumption that things must get worse if we withdraw has no empirical basis whatsoever, just a kind of white man’s burden utopianism of the sort that got us into this mess in the first place.

    the first rule of sucessful business is to ignore all sunk costs. if you can’t summon up a good argument for our entering iraq today, then we should be gone. the best we can do is attempt to mitigate the harm through aid and keeping the disaster from spilling over elsewhere in the region.

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