War without public support

One of the more common remarks made by the political establishment is that a president — any president — cannot expect to execute a war without the support of the public. There’s rarely any substantive follow-up on this point, however. It’s just understood — the backing of the electorate is simply necessary to continue fighting a war. The argument is presented in a self-evident kind of way, as if no explanation is needed.

It’s worth noting, of course, that there are all kinds of self-evident truths for which the Bush White House has little use. Cutting taxes during a costly war? It’s just not done, except Bush did it. Rejecting tenets of the Geneva Conventions to engage in torture? Presidents don’t do this, except this one did. Circumventing all checks and balances to engage in warrantless domestic surveillance? No president would even try, except Bush barely hesitated to do just that. Invade a country under false pretenses and without any thought about post-conflict peace? You get the point.

So, why can’t Bush continue fighting a war that Americans reject and abhor? The subject came up during the president’s NPR interview yesterday with Juan Williams. (This is the full exchange, without edits.)

MR. WILLIAMS: How long can you sustain the policy, though, with people so vehement in their doubt, the Congress voting as the Congress is voting, the polls showing what they’re showing?

PRESIDENT BUSH: Yeah. Well, I’m – you know, I’m hopeful that the decision I have made is going to yield enough results so that the Iraqi government is able to take more of the responsibility. Listen, they want the responsibility. You’ve heard their prime minister say, we’re ready to go. And in my judgment, and more importantly, the judgment of the military folks, they’re not quite ready to go. And therefore, it is in our interest to help them with an additional 21,000 troops, particularly in Baghdad, to help bring this violence down and to deal with these radicals, whether they be Sunni radicals or Shia radicals.

And, you know, I’m reluctant to put timetables on the situation because there are people who listen to what I say and others in America say, and are willing to adjust their timetables to our timetable. It is a – I’m optimistic, I’m realistic, I understand how tough the fight is, but I also understand the stakes, and it’s very important for our citizens to understand that a Middle East could evolve in which rival forms of extremists compete with each other, you know, nuclear weapons become developed, safe havens are in place, oil would be used as an economic weapon against the West. And I’m confident that if this were to happen, people would look back at this year and say, what happened to those people in 2006? How come they couldn’t see the impending threat?

Notice how Bush didn’t even try to address the question itself.

Williams asked how long the president can expect to fight a war without the support of the American people, and Bush responded by explaining why he thinks his tactics will succeed.

In other words, the support of the electorate would be nice, but it’s wholly unnecessary. When asked about it, he believes it’s a subject to be avoided. Nothing more.

In the context of the conventional wisdom, the establishment seems to be telling Bush, “You can’t fight a war indefinitely against the will of the nation.” To which the president responds, “Watch me.”

At this point, it’s almost as if Bush no longer feels he has anything to lose. His presidency is a failure; he’s been rejected the electorate; Congress is now being run by his political rivals; he has no real agenda to speak of; and his credibility here and around the world is practically non-existent. And yet, Congress can’t realistically remove him from office, his bubble remains intact, and lawmakers won’t cut off funding for his disastrous war.

And so, the lame duck keeps swimming, unconcerned about what commonly-accepted norms tell him he “can” or “can’t” do.

i disagree with your statement that congress can’t realistically remove him from office. in fact, with every day that passes, it becomes more and more apparent that both cheney and bush must be impeached. our country’s future depends on it!

  • Harry S. Truman (D), just after the Chinese attack with 260,000 troops into Korea in November 1950, “What has appeared in our press, along with the defeat of leaders in the Senate, has made the world believe that the American people are not behind our foreign policy …”

    Also HST after polls show 32 percent approval & 43 percent thought it was a mistake to go to war in Korea – “It isn’t polls or public opinion of the moment that counts. It’s right and wrong.”

    Where have all the leaders gone?

  • It might be possible to remove W for the high crimes and misdemeanors involved in human rights violations such as “extraordinary rendition”, or for illegal wirtetapes in security cases that were not vetted by a court.

    Problem is, we’d then get President Cheney.

    This is a case of “be careful what you wish for.” Best to simply have Congress keep him in a holding pattern until the next election.

  • How long can Bush keep us at war?

    As long as the rest of the country lets him – by *not* cutting off funding, by *not* impeaching his ass, by *not* even *threatening* to impeach his ass. Bush can keep us at war as long as he’s president, as long as nobody does any of those things.

    This has been another episode of Simple Answers To Simple Questions (with apologies to Atrios).

  • We truly have a rogue Presidency. My latest prediction is that things will get worse, and Bush gets more and more out of control, eventually resulting in a Constitutional Amendment limiting Presidential power, or creating some kind of Recall, the way the Kennedy assassination brought an Amendment about President’s no longer able to fulfill their duties…

    Actually, maybe that’s the route we can take; a broader interpretation of what “incapacitated” means.

  • There is a downside to Bush’s low polling numbers, the Dems running the off-year table, conventional wisdom opposing the President, early reviews of his legacy looking more miserable by the minute, etc.

    I believe that Bush is pressing on, and expanding the war, because there is nothing but upside for him, personally, in terms of history.

    There is nothing he can accomplish in the current climate; he has blown all of his goodwill at home and abroad. As a result, by any conventional thinking, his standing can, at best, hold steady and at worse continue to decline.

    So he has nothing personally to lose at this point; he knows he wont be impeached. But what he can do is swing for the fence. Sure, he is a lifetime .167 hitter whose never had the might to get more than a fluke double. The odds are almost impossible that he could hit a home run. But they are not zero, and if he hits a home run, he “wins” in the annals of history. He knows if he goes down looking, he has no chance at all and will be ridiculed. But if he swings really hard, he just might, if all the planets align, make contact. And so swing he will, wildly, insanely, recklessly, but always for the fence. Every chance he gets for the next two years.

    Knowing him, the bat will fly out of his hands and injure an innocent spectator. You’ve been warned.

  • Sorry, what I should have said is, “As long as the American people *let* Bush keep the war going.”

    That includes the measures listed above; it also includes “being afraid of President Cheney”, “lacking the stomach for a nasty fight with Republicans, because it’s easier to keep letting your constituents get killed in Iraq” and “backing off of threats because Republicans cry about the loss of ‘civility’ and ‘bipartisanship'” – all of these things enable Bush to continue the war in Iraq.

    Really: he couldn’t do it without them, and you, and us.

  • The problem with Zeitgeist’s scenario is that “swinging for the fence” may well mean bombing the crap out of Iran.

    Dems need to move to impeach for the known crimes this administration has already copped to (warrantless wiretaps, and outing a CIA officer). More will be evident by the time the Libby trial is over, and in 2008 Dems will be roundly rewarded, IF they get out there and call for impeachment BEFORE Bush starts the war with Iran.

  • #1 just bill and #6 Chris are right – Impeach Now.

    #2 Dale – There is absolutely good reason to believe our “deliberative body of government” will never get around to anything close to impeachment.

    But there’s a solution: BYPASS CONGRESS. HOLD “PEOPLE’S HEARINGS” in PUBLIC across the country in place of the ccandlelight vigils.

    As historian Howard Zinn suggests in this month’s Progressive magazine ( http://progressive.org/node/4473 ) un-American laws in our history from the Fugitive Slave Act to the Patriot Act were repealed not at the Federal level, but at the local city level. That’s the only area where I place hope…

  • In other words, the support of the electorate would be nice, but it’s wholly necessary [I assume you meant “unnecessary”]. When asked about it, he believes it’s a subject to be avoided. Nothing more.

    It’s almost like a mental puzzle or one of those dubious cases of diagnosis-by-television to figure out how his answer could have made sense. I mean, under what assumptions is that answer a good response to that question?

    Best answer that I can come up with: Bush doesn’t get the difference between popularity and actual success. He’s so politically driven, his policy is so controlled by political goals, that the two questions are the same to him. He hears “the war is unpopular” as “the war is a failure”, and vice versa. He’s not avoiding Williams’ question; he didn’t understand it in the first place.

    Alternately, of course, it could be the “fuck the public” message CB seems to think. Anyone have any other ideas?

  • Bush can keep us at war only as long as he has a military machine with which to wage that war. Deny him the fuel for the engine of that machine, and the machine will simply stop working.

    You can give this moron of a president all the war-funding in the world; he cannot wage war if there are no soldiers.

    If each and every individual citizen that wants this war to end—and I emphasize those words—WANTS THIS WAR TO END—is willing to stop the simplicity of “talking the talk,” and take up the task of “walking the walk,” then all they have to do is set for themselves the simple goal of convincing just one kid per week to refrain from enlisting—and then attain that goal. There is not one damned thing that the GOP members of the Senate can do to stop it. Bush cannot stop it. Cheney cannot stop it. The Pentagon cannot stop it. All the pro-war, hate-the-Constitution, Reich-wing yammering poodles on the entire planet cannot stop it.

    It is more than just “speaking Truth to Power”—because now, there’s Power behind that Truth….

  • I don’t agree, Steve. It’s a solution, but it would take years to take effect and it would undermine our country’s security in the meantime.

    I think Bush continues to ignore public opinion for two reasons. One is that we are not out demonstrating in the streets. One big protest in two years is not going to have an impact. Posting angry thoughts in blogs, although it’s important, is not going to have an impact. Bush gets away with his imperial presidency because we let him, by not demonstrating, not calling our senators, not calling our representatives, not standing outside with banners over highways.

    As long as our protests are quiet and low-profile, he can afford to ignore us. Plain and simple.

    The other reason is our Saudi masters. Remember a couple of months ago when Cheney was basically summoned to Saudi Arabia to confer with the Saudi government? It was not long after that that we started to hear a drumbeat about escalation. The Saudis want a relatively peaceful Iraq and protection for the Sunni minority, and my guess is that some deal has been struck. We get low oil prices and they get to fight the Shiites to the last American.

  • As John Jay said in Federalist 4:

    “It is too true, however disgraceful it may be to human nature, that nations in general will make war whenever they have a prospect of getting anything by it; nay, absolute monarchs will often make war when their nations are to get nothing by it, but for the purposes and objects merely personal, such as thirst for military glory, revenge for personal affronts, ambition, or private compacts to aggrandize or support their particular families or partisans. These and a variety of other motives, which affect only the mind of the sovereign, often lead him to engage in wars not sanctified by justice or the voice and interests of his people.”

    Hamilton listed such acts as among the “high crimes and misdemeanors” for which a President can be impeached, though both he, Jay and Madison all believed such a situation would never come to pass, since the war-making power was so strongly vested in the Congress only.

    Too bad Congress can’t be impeached for their failure to impeach this far right revolutionary cabal that has stolen our government.

  • When Bush declares war on Iran, the war in Iraq will go the way of Afganistan: force the natives to handle it and then ignore them. Faux News will declare Iraq a success and we will no longer hear about it.

  • Josh Marshall (as usual) puts it perfectly:

    I don’t know about you but sometimes I feel like we’re in this eerie afterburn of our four long years of disaster. The public has rendered its verdict. Every thinking person has rendered their verdict. But the administration is still going on more or less as though nothing’s happened. Serious thinking in Washington of The Note variety is still on a sort of mental autopilot. The story’s over. All the real arguments are settled. But as of yet the car is still in drive rather than reverse.

  • Tom Cleaver,

    That John Jay quote is astonishing. It describes W almost too perfectly. I’m guessing John Jay “clearly hates America” as far as the wingnuts are concerned.

    Thank you for posting that quote.

  • I think/hope that if we were vocal enough as a nation, Congress would act, and they would impeach. These people are thugs who have stolen two elections, but even worse, they seem to be insane, and criminals to boot. Two more years? Why should we have to endure two more years of this corruption? It’s past time to get vocal.

  • Notice how Bush didn’t even try to address the question itself.

    I listened to a lot of this interview yesterday on All Things Considered, and I’m not sure which was more infuriating: that Bush so transparently dodged almost every question put to him, or that Juan Williams declined to follow up on any of the answers, or point out “that really isn’t answering my question”.

  • I think Pelosi and the House Democrats overplayed their hand when they took impeachment “off the table”. I’m pretty sure Cheney/Rove/Bush are actually pushing the envelope of impeachable offenses – like a dare.

    If the House decides now to impeach, there could be a weird backlash of dissonence.

  • very interesting bcinaz @ #22. it sure seems like they are trying to see just how far they can push before they get their asses kicked.

  • “Problem is, we’d then get President Cheney. ” – NYC

    Impeach Cheney first! I know for a fact he has committed a high crime.

  • If only Bill Clinton had started a war on Hillary or Monica, with or, even better, without proper reasons. He could have still been president. He could have changed the constitution. He could have erased all the evidence the FBI/CIA/NSA could have.

  • Maybe if he got caught giving Cheney a blowjob Congress would get off its ass and impeach both of them.

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