Waterboarding leads Lieberman to lose his mind

Occasionally, we’ll hear that Joe Lieberman is generally in line with Democrats, but makes an exception on the war in Iraq and a neocon worldview of foreign policy. When it comes to values and domestic policy, the argument usually goes, Lieberman is generally reliable.

Let’s just erase that thought from our minds now, shall we?

Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman reluctantly acknowledged Thursday that he does not believe waterboarding is torture, but believes the interrogation technique should be available only under the most extreme circumstances.

Lieberman was one of 45 senators who voted Wednesday in opposition to a bill that would limit the CIA to the 19 interrogation techniques outlined in the Army field manual. That manual prohibits waterboarding, a method where detainees typically are strapped to a bench and have water poured into their mouth and nose making them feel as if they will drown.

“We are at war,” Lieberman said. “I know enough from public statements made by Osama bin Laden and others as well as classified information I see to know the terrorists are actively planning, plotting to attack us again. I want our government to be able to gather information again within both the law and Geneva Convention.”

Does Lieberman believe the U.S. ability to torture detainees is limitless? No, he says. He would not, for example, approve of “putting burning coals on people’s bodies” in order to obtain potentially life-saving intelligence from terrorists.

The difference, Lieberman said, is that those subjected to waterboarding are “in no real danger.”

It’s a genuine shame to see Joe Lieberman hit the bottom of the barrel — and then drill a hole large enough to fall a little more.

Waterboarding is torture. It’s always been torture. It was utilized during the Spanish Inquisition as a torture technique, and hasn’t improved with age. One need only read the description of the practice written by the former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School to see that no other label but “torture” applies.

“We are at war”? In context, Lieberman was, of course, referring to the “war on terror,” which will presumably never end, given that it’s a war against a tactic that has been, and will be, used forever. In other words, Lieberman isn’t exactly recommending torture on a limited, short-term basis — which would be offensive enough — but rather a pro-torture standard that would exist indefinitely.

Lieberman did say he wants our interrogation techniques to work within the Geneva Conventions. That’s an interesting standard — given that waterboarding is “torture under the Geneva Conventions and has been treated as a war crime in the United States for decades.”

As for Lieberman’s notion that detainees who are waterboarded are “in no real danger,” one wonders if Lieberman can even hear himself talk. Waterboarding is a controlled drowning in which the subject’s gag reflex is overpowered by pouring water, water involuntarily fills his or her lungs, and the subject slowly begins to suffocate. The possibility of death is constant. “No real danger”? That’s just pathetic.

During World War II, when the Japanese waterboarded U.S. troops, we considered it a war crime and executed the torturers. Now, Joe Lieberman not only seems to believe we were wrong to do so, but also that we should follow the Japanese’s lead and utilize their WWII interrogation techniques. It’s hard to overstate how disgusting this is.

I am curious, though, how Lieberman might respond to a follow-up question. Why would torture though controlled-drowning be fully legal and acceptable, while torture with “burning coals” would be beyond the pale? If we believe there’s an imminent terrorist attack, and Jack Bauer needs to save the day, he should be able to fill a suspect’s lungs with water, but he shouldn’t be able to put burning coals on the guy’s skin? This is the well-thought-out interrogation standard Joe Lieberman has come up with?

This guy is a disgrace. If he were capable of shame, now would be a good time for it.

He needs to read this (somewhat contentious) wiki:
“Although waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.[4] The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.[5]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

  • So now they know that they are in no danger, what possible benefit would it have to encourage a terrist to talk!

    Absudum highitist

  • “I want our government to be able to gather information again within both the law and Geneva Convention.”

    Fine. Get a panel of independent people to tell us what that means, and I am quite sure they will tell us that your ideas are ILLEGAL.

    Lieberman hasn’t lost his mind, he’s traded his integrity for an AIPAC pin.

  • With all the fans of waterboarding, I present a small mental exercise.

    There’s a violent anti-abortion group bombing clinics and shooting doctors, even going so far as to attack general medical facilities.

    There’s about to be another attack.

    There’s a guy who probably knows about it, the people, the timing. He’s a white Christian male and an American Citizen.

    Would they be up for him being waterboarded?

    Yeah, I thought so.

  • Why doesn’t somebody ask Joe more technique questions to suss out the line. There is a far distance between waterboarding and burning coals on the skin. What about breaking fingers? Electric shocks to the genitals? Isolation in a room where a television is on 24 hours a day blaring Joe’s most pompous moralizing speeches of the past two decades? Coffee enemas?

  • “It’s a genuine shame to see Joe Lieberman hit the bottom of the barrel — and then drill a hole large enough to fall a little more.”

    I volunteer to hold the dewlapping, vicious, traitorous fuck down, or to hold the rag over his face, or to pour the water…

    it cannot of course be illegal to advocate for this, since waterboarding is not a crime.

    nest paw?

  • Another reason we need to elect a larger Dem majority in the Senate… so we can kick LIEberman (CT, party of one), out of the Dem caucus and take away his chairmanship (with which he is doing NOTHING).

    What a LOSER, man.

  • Hey, #3: thanks for demonstrating the intellectual capability of your side.

    How many times did you flunk spelling, or did mommie just tell you it wasn’t important there in the home classroom?

  • Think about this for a moment:

    If Al Gore had become president in 2000, Joe Lieberman would be the leading candidate for president today. Scary.

  • 7. On February 15th, 2008 at 11:36 am, DragonScholar said:”…There’s a guy who probably knows about it, the people, the timing. He’s a white Christian male and an American Citizen.”

    which is an interesting thought experiment.
    But how about if we changed it to “”…There’s a guy who probably knows about it, the people, the timing. He’s a white Jewish male and an American Senator”?

  • The Democratic Party will gain a Leiberman-proof majority this year, and all his committee assignments are gone. Do you think he’s going to let himself be relegated to a third-tier Senator?

    Instead of shoring up his credentials, he’s used his deciding vote to stick us in the eye every chance he gets, so come November, what does he do? His only real choice is a “come to Jesus” switch to be McCain’s VP, or get a spot in a McCain administration. That’s his best bet, so he’ll be using his position in every way possible for a Republican win.

  • Submit Joe Lieberman to waterboarding and see if he will tell Americans why he is such a disgrace!.

  • mat1492 really gets to the heart of the waterboarding issue in comment #3. Torture works because the torturee feels the torturers are batshit crazy enough to do some really horrible things to them from putting them in extreme pain to mutilation and death. If waterboarding were safe and done in a controlled medical environment where the subject knows nothing bad would happen to them the procedure would be as effective as putting them through a funhouse ride at a carnival.

    Torture works out of fear and that fear comes from knowing that you have lost your humanity and your life is worthless. While revengists will argue these are “bad people” being tortured, I have no faith in a government that is not willing to follow any rules of fair play, such as you know providing evidence or access to counsel or even acknowledgement of their captivity, to prove these people are who they say they are.

    The worst part about Lieberman is his allowance of a constant erosion of common law and decency. I can see Joe advocating for other extreme measures to be undertaken under extreme circumstances. Assassinating US citizens “under extreme circumstances?” I could see Joe torturing his own conscience and being able to say yes to that. What is chipped away at our sense of right and wrong today becomes accepted practice in the future.

  • Joe has now revealed his moral bankruptcy in a manner that can no longer be overlooked. He has sunk…beneath contempt.

  • Tin Foil Hat Time:

    The “value” of our “enhanced interrogation techniques” lies (in part) in the fact that the tarrists didn’t know what they are, what to expect and most of all, how to prepare for them. Remember when the Bushies couldn’t even talk about the sort of techniques used because the tarrist would hear and know what to expect?

    Suddenly everyone is quite willing to chat about WBing (provided you don’t call it torture). Now, assuming Bin Laden didn’t suggest WBing to GWB, the terrorists must have undergone some sort of training to withstand it by now. This makes WBing doubly useless. It can’t work against the guys who’ve been through it. Using it on guys who haven’t (random guys who were ratted out for a reward) can’t tell you anything because they aren’t terrorists.

    My TFHT conclusion: WBing is a big rotten red herring and whatever is being done to suspected terrorists would make WBing seem like a “dunk in the water.” Maybe Joe gave something away when he mentioned hot coals.

  • The reason these morons are making an exception for waterboarding (besides the fact that they are mentally, emotionally, and morally deficient) is because they don’t think it leaves marks. No bruises, no blisters, no wounds, no foul.

    The ticking-bomb scenario is so stupid it makes my teeth hurt every time I hear it. What on earth makes them think they’d get the truth out of a subject who’s planning on dying within the hour in an atomic conflagration? All they’ll get is what anybody’s ever gotten out of waterboarding: they’ll hear what they want to hear.

    Gah.

  • It appears that the various rightwing torture fans are trying to “reframe” the definition of torture as “not lethal”.

    Defining evil down. Lowering standards. Situational ethics. Aren’t these all things the rightwingers have been howling against for decades?

  • Think of the bright side.

    The Democrats will almost certainly have a Lieberman proof majority next year.

  • The Church (Roman Catholic) tried to outlaw torture in the Middle Ages. They provided detailed descriptions of what was torture and what was not allowed. They included things like breaking bones, ripping joints, flaying skin and burning. Very detailed they were.

    Then the torturers invented ‘Pressing’. Pressing basically involved tying a person down to a table and putting a heavy wooden box on his chest. It’s not easy to breath with a heavy wooden box on your chest. After a while, the torturers would come in and ask if you wanted to confess to have the box removed. If you declined, they put rocks into the box.

    No flayed skin, no broken bones, no burns. Just slow suffication.

    Torture can not be defined as ‘it’s not lethal’.

    Waterboarding is torture.

    And torture is worthless for getting real actionable intelligence.

    And BGII has destroyed the reputation of the United States because he wants to be like Jack Baurer.

    Just sick. And so is LIEberman.

  • People have died during waterboarding, including some of our prisoners in the various black sites where we “interrogate terrorists” (read, try to coerce confessions so that we can have show-trials and hang some scapegoats). It’s quite easy for the torturers to miscalculate and actually drown the victim to death. So please, Joe, either volunteer to demostrate, with yourself as subject, or bag the “no blood, no foul” rule, which was always dishonest.

  • Fully agree with this post. I noticed the euphemism “controlled drowning” at the end. I prefer this to “simulated drowning,” since it acknowledges at least that waterboarding is drowning.

    Still, if waterboarding is controlled drowning, what is death by the electric chair? “Controlled microwaving?”

  • Of course, Mr. Lieberman is right, and you are all wrong. Victims of waterboarding are in no real danger – they’re just having their air supply cut off, and generally for much less than a minute, at that. It’s no more torture than, say, rolling a guy up in a sleeping bag and then kneeling on his chest…

    Oh, wait, that guy died. Too far, go back.

  • I’d like to demonstrate to Holy Joe how driving hypodermic needles under his fingernails puts him “in no real danger.”

  • Ya know, I think the only thing that will shock all of Americans enough to shut these torture supporters up is if junior high schoolers all over the country started ingaging it waterboarding their peers as a bad bad joke.

    I don’t want it to actually happen, but I would sure love it if a fake story was spread that it was happenning to pre-teens all over the country because they just wanted to see what it was like.

    “Waterboarding Becoming Junior High School Prank Fad”

  • Sounds to me like Lieberman is saying it is OK for our enemies to waterboard U.S. soldiers or captives. After all, it’s not really torture and they are at war. Why do you suppose he hate our troops so much?

  • Why are we even having this F***ING CONVERSATION!!!!?????

    Sorry to shout, but I am SO frustrated that elected officials would in any way support TORTURE. We’re supposed to be the good guys. We’re supposed to be better than this. When we claim that we’re the best country in the world, how low do we want to set the bar? “Well, we won’t electrocute your nuts and we won’t burn your skin, we’ll just drown you halfway and see how that goes. The other guys, they’re the nut-electrocuting, flesh-burning, torturing bastards, not us. We’re AMURIKUNS, and God is on OUR side.”

    SIgh. /Rant off/.

  • Why are we even having this F***ING CONVERSATION!!!!????? -Stacy6

    Joe Lie has a hard-on for Jack Bauer. I seriously think too many people in important positions are reading Tom Clancy novels as if they were manuals.

    Pardon the vulgarity.

  • Is this guy Lieberman a Jew? Has he heard of Auschwitz? Would waterboarding have been OK there? Is waterboarding an acceptable tactic for the State of Israel to use? My what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive. Not a word comes from poor Lieberman’s mouth that is not a lie, pure and simple.

  • Is this guy Lieberman a Jew? Has he heard of Auschwitz? Would waterboarding have been OK there? Is waterboarding an acceptable tactic for the State of Israel to use? My what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive. Not a word comes from poor Lieberman’s mouth that is not a lie, pure and simple. I cannot believe that any Jew would favor any form of excruciating interrogation, let alone torture after what hasa repeatedly happened to them over the millennia. Do they / does Lieberman think it is payback time, now, for Pharaoh and Nebuchanezzar?

  • Is this guy Lieberman a Jew? Has he heard of Auschwitz? Would waterboarding have been OK there? Is waterboarding an acceptable tactic for the State of Israel to use? My what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive. Not a word comes from poor Lieberman’s mouth that is not a lie, pure and simple. I cannot believe that any Jew would favor any form of excruciating interrogation, let alone torture after what has repeatedly happened to The Jewish People over the millennia. Do they / does Lieberman think it is payback time, now, for Pharaoh and Nebuchanezzar?

  • I like that many commenters are agreeing that waterboarding is torture but some of them are falling into the trap of saying that it’s also useless because the terrorists can now prepare for it. Uh, no they can’t.

    There’s a story on the internet of a guy who waterboarded himself because he didn’t really really have a firm opinion either way and wanted to see what the fuss was about. He KNEW that he was in no real danger but he still believed that he was going to die because his “OMG, I’m drowning!” instincts overrode his reason. He said afterwards that he’d rather have his fingers smashed.

    http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717

  • Maybe in the next season of “24”, Jack Bauer can be tried and convicted of torture. Only then will Scalia and Lieberman consider torture a bad thing.

  • Well, they’re just damned dirty apes, er, Arabs, and I’m sure some of them are guilty of something, maybe. The AG says it’s okay, as long as “we” are the ones doing it (I’m beginning to notice a pattern with these Bush Admin AG’s, but I’m not sure how to interpret it). Hell, even a Supreme dickhead Court Justice says it’s okay to torture if JackBauer needs to save LA from being blown up.

  • I cannot believe that any Jew would favor any form of excruciating interrogation, let alone torture after what hasa repeatedly happened to them over the millennia.

    Ever hear of Alan Dershowitz?

  • but some of them are falling into the trap of saying that it’s also useless because the terrorists can now prepare for it. Uh, no they can’t.

    That was the bAdmin’s reasoning for keeping everything the did to the prisoners super top secret. So, by the WH’s own “logic” wbing became useless the minute the enemy found out.

    And yet, they keep talking about waterboarding and not (for example) hot coals on the skin.

  • “Waterboarding Becoming Junior High School Prank Fad”

    I hope somebody on the Onion’s payroll reads that and runs with it. If you just took a portion of some of the insane crap that’s been said by Congressmen and pundits in support of waterboarding and other torture techniques, you could flesh out a satire article like that with real named luminaries and direct quotes that are 100% real. Please, Onion, take this one on!

  • It is amazing to me how quickly we forget our heritage. How can Lieberman endorse what the Nazi’s made common practice? When we willingly take up the habits of our enemies what does that make us? Our leaders continue to wrestle in the mud, do not lead by example and continue to offer the most primitive rationalizations enabling civilization to continually slide backwards.

  • Lieberman’s logic on waterboarding (“if it doesn’t do any lasting physical harm, it’s okay”) justifies a lot more than he would probably care to admit. For example, under Liebermann’s logic, having a suspect’s wife and kids raped in front of him until he agreed to talk would be acceptable, as long as the rapists used condoms.

    I sincerely hope that Lieberman simply hasn’t thought through the implications of his argument. Otherwise, he truly has become a monster.

  • The thing is… Torture is Illegal!!
    There is simply no way around this…
    In the VERY unlikely situation of a “Jack Bauer” situation (ie. “this terrorist knows where the terrorist nuke in New York is, and it goes of in a few hours…)”
    Then the commanding officer could (not be forgiven, but) be understood if he used torture to get the info out of the terrorist….
    BUT…
    Immedeately afterwards, he should resign (he should be fired anyway, bu its a start), be imprisoned and put to trial/convicted for the crime of torture.
    (the terrorist should also be able to sue the military afterwards, even if he WERE guilty)

    If the military leaders havent got the guts to take the punishment for their torture (no matter how important it might have been to do in this or any other hypothetical future “24h”-style situations) they should NOT have been in command in the first place…..
    By punishing those responsible the US would still manage to claim that they are moraly right, and not be in the moral quagmire they are in now….

    There might be situations wher torture might be the only “solution”, but they are FEW (Bush havent produced any yet), and in no cases are torture “moraly right”, and the cases should ALWAYS end whith those responsible for the torure being punished HARD for their crime, no matter how “good” their intentions (or even results) where…

    These military leaders are supposed to be willing to die for their contry in battle, but not to take responsibility for their own warcrimes?

  • Ladies and Gentlemen, a truely sanctimonious person comes along only about every 100 years. When Joe Lieberman discovered He was Jewish and one of the Chosen Ones and His People were waiting for a Great Leader, A Great Mind, A Military Genius, A person so pious He actually took Saturdays off, A “Messiah”, Joe Lieberman knew He had found His calling.

    Some people think they’re Fabulous. Others know it.

  • Lieberman is the ONLY person that makes sense. Waterboarding….give me a break.

    mas
    Jews for the Preservation of Gun Ownership

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