What Michigan and Florida re-votes would mean to the Clinton campaign

Behind-the-scenes talks continue at a fairly aggressive pace about what Dems are going to do with Michigan and Florida. There’s a growing sense that Michigan may end up hosting a do-over primary in June, while influential Floridians continue to float various compromise proposals.

There’s apparently a sense among Clinton supporters that the Clinton campaign should be more forceful in advocating re-votes in the two states. Mark Schmitt explains why this seems like a very bad strategy.

What would happen if an agreement were announced today that there would be re-votes in Florida and Michigan? Immediately, the previous primaries in those states would become dead letters. Instead of being 200,000 votes down in the popular vote (by her campaign’s count), or 500,000 down (by my count, which gives Clinton her Florida votes), Clinton would be down in the popular vote by almost 1 million. And 193 delegates that they are currently counting would suddenly disappear.

And at that point, the magnitude of Clinton’s deficit would be too obvious to spin away. Yes, there would be two additional large-state contests in which to win back the million popular votes and hundreds of delegates. But unless she did significantly better in both states than she did in the illegal primaries, she would lose, not gain, ground, by her own calculations. Since she was on the ballot alone in Michigan before, it’s highly unlikely that she will do better there. It’s very possible that she could do better than the 50 percent she won in Florida in January, but since it would now be a two-person race, it’s a dead certainty that Obama would do significantly better than the 32 percent he got in January, thus adding to his total popular vote margin and delegate count even if he lost again, and so it would be a net loss for Clinton. Re-votes cannot help Clinton be “perceived” as the winner of the popular vote.

Contrary to the gullible media’s belief that “time” is a “powerful ally” on Clinton’s side, in fact, Clinton’s only ally is uncertainty. The minute it becomes clear what will happen with Michigan and Florida — re-vote them, refuse to seat them, or split them 50-50 or with half-votes, as some have proposed — is the minute that Clinton’s last “path to the nomination” closes. The only way to keep spin alive is to keep uncertainty alive — maybe there will be a revote, maybe they’ll seat the illegal Michigan/Florida delegations, maybe, maybe, maybe. In the fog of uncertainty, Penn can claim that there is a path to the nomination, but under any possible actual resolution of the uncertainty, there is not.

It’s hard to overstate how persuasive this is.

There are practically zero circumstances in which re-votes would help the Clinton campaign. She won’t beat Obama by 20 points in Florida again, and she won’t beat him by 55 in Michigan again. Clinton benefits from a) leaving things just as they are, and convincing the DNC to throw its rules out the window; or b) having the situation unresolved indefinitely.

The first is unlikely, because it constitutes changing the rules in the middle of the game. Clinton supported stripping Michigan and Florida of their delegates, and supported the agreement whereby no candidate would campaign in the states. Now that she wants/needs the states to appear competitive, those previous positions, apparently, are no longer operative. Most reasonable observers find this a little hard to swallow.

Nevertheless, while the possibility of competitive contests in Florida and Michigan remain on the table, the Clinton campaign can argue that the fight for the nomination is unresolved, and should stay that way. As Ezra explained, it seems like a strategy premised on delaying the inevitable, given Obama’s lead in delegates, votes, states, and increasingly, superdelegates.

[W]e know that her only path to the nomination is to crush Obama’s candidacy, to wound him so heavily that the superdelegates will abandon him and turn to Clinton as the savior of the party. It’s not because she’s a mean person, but because that’s the only strategy left to her. She’s in the weird position of being famous enough that the media is willing to grant her candidacy legitimacy long after other campaigns would have been written off. And that’s convinced her to stay in the race. But it’s left her in a race she can’t win, and in a position where she has to go so brutally negative that she makes Obama lose, and the superdelegates pick her by default.

But that outcome only looks viable from within the Clinton campaign. Sitting outside their tent, it’s vanishingly unlikely. And I say that as someone who’s long been sympathetic to her candidacy, and who’s not particularly enamored with Obama. If her strategy succeeds, and she somehow does uncover the piece of opposition research or force the gaffe that destroys Obama’s campaign, it seems likelier that Al Gore gets the nomination through a brokered convention than that Hillary Clinton gets it through the intervention of the superdelegates. There’s just too much fear as to what the repercussions among African-American voters would be.

So her path to the nomination involves either a brutal and divisive convention battle, or a campaign that does nothing save damage the eventual nominee. Eventually, Pelosi and Reid and Dean are going to realize that, and convince a solid bloc of superdelegates to make an endorsement that ends this process. Presumably, that would happen after Pennsylvania. But what Clinton is trying to do is draw out uncertainty over Michigan and Florida so that it can’t happen until after that question is resolved, and that question isn’t anywhere near resolution. Since those states sound big, it seems superficially plausible that their intervention could change the dynamics. But if you look at the delegates, and you look at the votes, that’s actually not true. And this is why clarity hurts the Clinton campaign.

If there’s a flaw in this thinking, I don’t see it.

For the flaw in the thinking go read Big Tent Democrat- It is explained there pretty well.

The problem with Mark’s argument is that while he may be counting the Florida popular vote (and he is not counting the Michigan vote, rightly in my view) in his calculus, the Media is not. And certainly no one is counting the Florida and Michigan delegates. Thus, Mark ignores these realities when he writes:

Contrary to the gullible media’s belief that “time” is a “powerful ally” on Clinton’s side, in fact, Clinton’s only ally is uncertainty. The minute it becomes clear what will happen with Michigan and Florida — re-vote them, refuse to seat them, or split them 50-50 or with half-votes, as some have proposed — is the minute that Clinton’s last “path to the nomination” closes. The only way to keep spin alive is to keep uncertainty alive — maybe there will be a revote, maybe they’ll seat the illegal Michigan/Florida delegations, maybe, maybe, maybe. In the fog of uncertainty, Penn can claim that there is a path to the nomination, but under any possible actual resolution of the uncertainty, there is not.
But for the Media (certainly for example for NBC and most Left Blogs) there is no uncertainty regarding the “fair” outcome, the only uncertainty in their minds is whether Clinton will “steal the election.” That is a bad uncertainty for Clinton. She can replace that bad uncertainty with a more positive uncertainty – to wit, Clinton could come close in the pledged delegate count, could WIN the popular vote, could win convincingly with Democrats (as opposed to Independents and Republicans in Open Dem primaries), could win the key big contested states, and could have the big momentum as the contest comes to close.

What is obvious to Mark about Obama’s inevitability is not obvious to me. Nor is it obvious to a more committed Obama supporter, Chris Bowers:

Without a single more superdelegate making an endorsement, it is still possible for Clinton to move pretty close in the delegate count. . . . If that winning streak also results in her winning the national popular vote, then she would have an overwhelming argument to bring to superdelegates based on both momentum and the popular will.
Without revotes in Florida and Michigan, Clinton’s claims of a legitimate popular vote win, a closing of the pledged delegate race, a pattern of big contested state wins and of closing momentum becomes impossible

In my view, Schmitt has the uncertainty argument exactly backwards. Clinton has negative uncertainty now, reinforcing every false stereotype of her and her campaign (“She’ll do anything to win”). Revotes in Floirda and Michigan allow her to build a new positive uncertainty narrative in this race – one where she is fighting to count every vote and win the contest for the will of the people.

  • It’s hard to overstate how persuasive this is.

    Jesus yeah.
    The numbers for her go flatter than a two week old dead rattlesnake on an Arizona highway.
    She is roadkill… so dry and flat, she hardly stinks anymore.

  • It’s not because she’s a mean person, but because that’s the only strategy left to her.

    Au contraire. She has plenty of other strategies available to her, but none that let her win.

    People who focus that much on winning personally, to the detriment of others, are generally called “bad people”.

  • Especially Michigan. If they revote in Michigan there is no way she wins(by winning I mean getting closer in the delegate count). She only won 58% of the vote when she was the only one on it. I doubt she’ll repeat that again. Besides, Obama didn’t get any delegates before. He’ll pick up a lot now.

  • To summarize Clinton’s strategy: it ain’t over ’til it’s over.

    She simply wants to not concede anything.

    Maybe after tomorrow’s Iowa revote she’ll be branded a sore loser.

  • The primaries that took place in Florida and Michigan have no value as they were not legitimate. Try as she must, Hillary has no choice but to ask for a re-vote. The other alternative is divide the delegates of two states in proportion to overall pledged delegates for Clinton & Obama and that will mean sealing the deal for Obama.

    Clinton’s only hope is to win Florida and win big which is unlikely anyway, so it is time she realizes that she has lost the race and fold her tent and go away with dignity.

  • To add a little credibility to the idea that

    “Eventually, Pelosi and Reid and Dean are going to realize that, and convince a solid bloc of superdelegates to make an endorsement that ends this process.”

    I’ve been saving the super delegate changes over the last several weeks:
    Obama | Clinton
    156 242
    163 242
    168 239
    169 239
    173 238
    178 238
    181 241
    182 241
    184 241
    196 241
    202 241
    204 243
    207 242
    209 242
    210 242
    210 245
    211 247
    212 248

    I should have put dates but it’s basically one line per day. Lately it’s slowed way down for Obama, it’s likely to be the pause after Ohio, but it could be a block getting together to endorse at the same time.

  • Technically you’re right, unfortunately a couple of weeks back Tucker Carlson referred to Clinton vs. Obama as “the journalist full employment act of 2008” and your analysis depends on his press corps comrades doing something they aren’t all that likely to … lower its own circulation/ratings. I mean can you see Chris Matthews giving up the chance to do mostly all PA Hardballs for the next 6 weeks?

  • I mean can you see Chris Matthews giving up the chance to do mostly all PA Hardballs for the next 6 weeks?

    Hell no. He’s been begging the Clinton campaign to do a town hall meeting with him at Villanova.

  • For the flaw in the thinking go read Big Tent Democrat

    Well, that generally is where I go to find flawed thinking….

  • If you are a Clinton supporter, then you view her winning as a positive good for the country. Calling Clinton a “bad person” because she wants to defeat Obama is ridiculous. She has as much right to try and win this election as Obama has. Arguably, as many people support her as support Obama, so the sadness of Obama’s supporters should she win would be counterbalanced by the happiness of all who voted for Clinton and support her.

    The simplemindedness of characterizing her as “a bad person” because she wants to win when running against someone you might prefer just boggles my mind. Are you a child?

    Those who keep saying that Clinton is destroying the Democrats or destroying the nation by following her aspiration to be president are being fundamentally anti-democratic. I suppose you are the same people who denied Nader the right to be a candidate (in a free country) or perhaps Gravel or Kucinich? Clinton, however, is so much more viable that she may be in contention in June. Suggesting that she has no right to continue campaigning is so against the principles of our democracy that I am shocked that anyone calling themselves progressive would suggest it. A man showing the same grit and determination would be praised. Instead, she is called names.

  • The Clinton camp must understand that even achieving the Democratic nomination is only half the battle. She may win that battle through cunning strategy and clever scheme but lose the entire war in November by souring not only many Democrats who may feel legitimately or not that she cheated the process but also the rest of public voting, or actively choosing not to vote in, the general election in November.

    Her only hope, and it is razor thin at best, is to be a champion of greater legitimacy in the selection process. If she gets the nomination, it should be indisputable. If she goes down she should go down a hero. She needs to understand that at this stage her political career is in the balance and her presidential ambitions are increasingly a long shot. A growing fear is that Hillary could “Nader” he own party by putting her own ambitions before being a Democrat. Both hers and Bills legacies will be in the toilet if that happens. If she loses her bid for the nomination this election, she can still live to fight another day. If she grabs the nomination like Sherman marching through Georgia, both she, the party and this nation look doomed in the fall. And if she snatches defeat from the jaws of victory for the Democratic party by being vicious and unprincipled, she will be a pariah throughout the nation.

  • Mary@12

    She’s a “bad person” due to the Rove-ian character of her and her campaign, not because the poor little nominee just wants to win so bad. There’s a lot to be said for losing gracefully and not hurting the greater good in the pursuit of some minuscule odds.

    Has nothing to do with her being a woman – it has to do with her being herself. Don’t delude yourself.

  • Ajaz @ #6

    Clinton’s only hope is to win Florida and win big which is unlikely anyway

    Are you kidding me? Obama doesn’t have a chance in Florida, too many republicans, moderates, and OLD people..

    I only have one thing to say about Michigan… It’s the economy stupid!

    Obama is running out of steam, he may win in NC, but it will be close either way, but expect him to lose big in FL, PA, & MI.

  • Calling Clinton a “bad person” because she wants to defeat Obama is ridiculous.

    And who exactly said this? Who called her that?

    No one in this thread has called her a “bad person” because she wants to defeat Obama. No one has used those words, Mary, except you.

  • Ah, I searched for “bad person” and missed Racer X’s “bad people.”

    I hereby reject and denounce and renounce and dismiss my earlier comment.

  • Those who keep saying that Clinton is destroying the Democrats or destroying the nation by following her aspiration to be president are being fundamentally anti-democratic.

    Remind me which candidate has won more votes and won more contests?

    I suppose you are the same people who denied Nader the right to be a candidate (in a free country) or perhaps Gravel or Kucinich?

    Funny, in the universe I live in, Nader had the right to be a candidate and appeared on ballots in 1992, 1996, 2000 and 2004. And in the universe I live in, Kucinich had the right to be a candidate and appeared on ballots in 2000 and 2004. And in the universe I live in, Gravel had the right to be a candidate and appeared on ballots in 2004.

    Who exactly denied them the right to do so in the fantasy land you live in?

  • Those who keep saying that Clinton is destroying the Democrats or destroying the nation by following her aspiration to be president are being fundamentally anti-democratic. -Mary

    Did anyone every claim that the primary was a democratic process? Because it isn’t.

    We’re not being anti-democratic, we’re being pro-Democratic.

  • Suggesting that she has no right to continue campaigning is so against the principles of our democracy that I am shocked that anyone calling themselves progressive would suggest it. A man showing the same grit and determination would be praised.

    Right, because that’s exactly what happened to Mike Huckabee.

  • I hereby reject and denounce and renounce and dismiss my earlier comment. -TR

    You also have to fire it from your campaign. 🙂

  • Are you kidding me? Obama doesn’t have a chance in Florida, too many republicans, moderates, and OLD people. -Greg

    I’ll give you the old people, sure, but I’m confused about the Republicans and moderates…I thought they were voting for Obama to skew the election results, and I also thought the Florida primary was closed?

    I’m so confused by all the angles the Clinton supporters are working.

  • Thank you for admitting that you were wrong.

    The Obama folks who are worried that Democrats may be soured by the manner in which Clinton may win are not aware of the souring that is now occurring by the manner in which Obama is campaigning.

    These arbitrary rules about how Clinton must win in order to be legitimate are just that, arbitrary made up rules designed to favor Obama. There is nothing that says Clinton must win overwhelmingly or she won’t unite Dems in the Fall. I could say the same about Obama. He must win over the Clinton supporters and stop making fun of the little old ladies who are her supposed constituency, stop extoling the youth vote and winking to the homophobes, stop channeling Ronald Reagan. Many Clinton supporters have genuine concerns about Obama that are not being addressed through the insults delivered in comments like these (TR, your insults toward me don’t convince other people — they just make you sound like a bully).

    Randi Roades today was upset about the Jeremiah Wright sermons and called for Obama to distance himself from Wright. Obama cannot do that without alienating his African American constituency. Look for this to change the dynamic a bit. If Obama was able to attend 20 years of sermons like that, he isn’t ready to be the president of ALL of the people, in my opinion. He can talk about uniting people all he wants, but he seeks spiritual sustenance from a champion divider. That requires explanation, not a folksy remark about that embarrassing uncle in everyone’s family.

  • There’s a lot to be said for losing gracefully and not hurting the greater good in the pursuit of some minuscule odds.

    Edwards comes to mind.

  • These arbitrary rules about how Clinton must win in order to be legitimate are just that, arbitrary made up rules designed to favor Obama. -Mary

    Isn’t winning the goal? I’m legitimately confused by this statement.

    He must win over the Clinton supporters and stop making fun of the little old ladies who are her supposed constituency, stop extoling the youth vote… -Mary

    I’ve not seen where Obama or anyone associated with his campaign has belittled the elderly in anyway, and what in the world is wrong with courting, receiving, and being proud of the youth vote? I thought Democrats in general wanted young people to get engaged, and, you know, vote for Democrats.

    You make it sound like if TR et al were nicer that you’d be open to changing your mind. I don’t think that’s the case. I’ve seen you state to often that you wouldn’t vote for Obama in the general to accept that. You Clintonistas are just as married to your candidate that us Obamaniacs, or more so.

    I, for one, would’ve accepted that Obama had lost this race if their standings were reversed.

  • Dirk wrote:

    a couple of weeks back Tucker Carlson referred to Clinton vs. Obama as “the journalist full employment act of 2008”

    I guess even a blind pig finds a truffle now and then…
    Because Tucker got that exactly right.

    The ONLY reasons the Clintons are still in the game is because the media needs the attention and because Barack is black. [Yeah. The bar is definitely set higher. And it keeps getting snatched away and lifted higher. Again and again. ] If this thing were reversed… if Clinton had all of Barack’s votes and all of Barack’s delegates both the party brass and the media would have run him out of town. And if you don’t believe that you are drunk on Mary-Anne’s clear brand of old-gal pucker-face kool aid.

    The fact that the party brass sat quiet as republicans when Ferraro did her nasty deed speaks volumes. The democratic party HAS no moral leadership. Zippo! It took a journalist [Olbermann] to make Clinton shake the shit from her tree and apologize…
    If Olbermann didn’t run her over… We’d still have Clinton surrogates on threads “rationalizing” Ferraro’s behavior ad infinitum like Mary-Anne. As it is, given Clinton’s apology, they’ve shut up their stupidity and shoved their racism back into the closet.

    Given all this: I don’t have any expectaction for the block of delegates that Fountian @ 7 posits may be in the offing. I’ve learned to never assume that dems in position of authority will do the right thing.

    And that’s why Barack’s call for a re-do in Michigan was a fantastic move. He had to do it. He has to march this thing to it’s bitter end and kill it with eyes wide open for all to see.

    That’s the bad news.
    The good news is that once he wins in the Fall…
    These old limo-democrats will end up as road kill.
    About frigging time….

  • Mary,

    If Sen Clinton was anyone else, it would be over. If it wasn’t Sen Clinton, the party would have put a stop to this. If it wasn’t Sen Clinton, the votes and the math would have put a stop to this.

    Now, you’re going to get bent out of shape and assume that i’m some sort of Obamabot. But that is not the case (i will freely admit to disliking the Clintons since 1993…an emotion that grows stronger by the day).

    At this point, i don’t really care. You can probably figure me to be on the leading edge of what may become a rather large wave by summertime. I’m not partisan, so this only smacks of childish power games to me. I’m keeping up to date because it’s interesting…and that’s all. I am quickly reaching the point where i will write in Mark Twain for President and vote on the rest of the ballot. The Democratic Party is just turning me off. (It doesn’t help that i’m a MI voter so my relationship with the Democratic Party has had a few issues for some time now.)

    I’ll give you very generous numbers: 50% of the country are Democrats. The candidates are split pretty equally, which means that whoever wins, 25% of the country will be happy. Gee, that sounds like the number of people who support George W. Bush…real ‘democratic’.

    And if the shoe was on the other foot, you’d be here every day talking about how Obama should concede for the good of the party and all that jazz.

  • Because Tucker got that exactly right. -ROTFMLiberalAO

    And then promptly got fired.

  • The Obama folks who are worried that Democrats may be soured by the manner in which Clinton may win are not aware of the souring that is now occurring by the manner in which Obama is campaigning.

    Alright, I’ll bite. What exactly about how Obama is campaigning is souring you?

    These arbitrary rules about how Clinton must win in order to be legitimate are just that, arbitrary made up rules designed to favor Obama.

    That’s an interesting conspiracy theory you have there. You do realize that in most states, the primary and caucus rules were laid down long before this year’s race, and in many cases, they’ve had the same rules and procedures in place for a decade or more? Did they have the ability to see in the future back in 1972 and decide to rig things for Obama in 2008?

    TR, your insults toward me don’t convince other people — they just make you sound like a bully

    Aren’t the Clinton supporters the ones who keep insisting politics is hardball and the Obama people need to stop crying and whining about everything?

    Whatever. I’ve long ago stopped trying to reason with you and the other Clinton cultists, Mary. I offer polling data and analysis to support my arguments, and ask you all to respond in kind, and all I get back are delusional wishes. I find the SurveyUSA data to be quite compelling, but you all simply wish it away and pretend its not there, and make wild statements with no semblance of fact to back them up.

    If you’d like to embrace reality, perhaps I’d start caring what you think. Until then, it’s simply lunacy.

  • **Obama. He must win over the Clinton supporters and stop making fun of the little old ladies who are her supposed constituency, stop extoling the youth vote and winking to the homophobes, stop channeling Ronald Reagan.*** Mary

    Wow. Really, I mean it, wow. Making fun of little old ladies? Really, where? Extolling the youth vote — That’s bad now? Haven’t we been trying to get them involved since forever?

    Winking to the homophobes? You mean ?

    And the last one, well, really? And Clinton is channeling whom?

  • [Hillary’s] in the weird position of being famous enough that the media is willing to grant her candidacy legitimacy long after other campaigns would have been written off.

    Exactly.

  • Hey Mary, maybe if you stop insulting our intelligence, people would stop insulting you?

  • Mary: “These arbitrary rules about how Clinton must win in order to be legitimate… ”

    Um, that’s kind of weird. From where I sit, it’s the *Clintons* that are making up “arbitrary rules” about how Obama must win…

    – “Significant” states
    – Large states
    – Non-caucus states
    – Popular Vote
    – Contests he wasn’t even on the ballot for
    – Popular vote including contests he wasn’t even on the ballot for
    – Pennsylvania or bust!!!

    …and what else have I left out?

    It’s the Clinton campaign that keeps trying to put new obstacles in the way to define “winning” to be “whatever Hillary is succeeding at.”

    Sheesh…

  • Mary, there is no hope convincing Obama followers that Obama should be declared the Democratic nominee on their say so.
    They are not based in the same reality as we are.
    Is it rapture perhaps?

    Obama supporters on the other hand actually support the democratic process.

  • Mary, I’m afraid you’re pulling down way more commenting input than your position substantiates. You’re certainly free to have your own opinion, and I think it’d be safe to say everybody knows what it is, but at some point it has to be backed up by something more than yearning.

    Hillary can’t win, probably because she slept through the “little states” while Obama was rolling ’em up largely unopposed. She could clinch the nomination only if she could convince the superdelegates to give it to her. I’m not even sure that would work now – Obama isn’t Al Gore. I like Al Gore and respect his intellect and commitment, but he gave up too easily. If asked to step aside for Hillary, Obama might just take the case to the people. If he did, Hillary would lose. She’d have to, because Obama leads the popular vote.

    How can you not see that it’s damaging the party? I agree she’s a lot closer to Obama, position-wise, than Huckabee was to McCain, but it’s only a matter of scale. Mathematically, Huckabee’s candidacy had become untenable. So has Hillary’s – it’s just that her numbers are high enough to give her supporters false hope and the ability to deny reality. Now, would it have done the Republican campaign any good to have Huckabee still hanging on, spending money he’d likely still pull in from the fundamentalists, saturating the airwaves with anti-McCain broadsides? Or is it better to have McCain resting up, concentrating his message against all Democrats instead of against a fellow Republican, trying to wrap up a nomination contest that just will not die?

    The more Hillary plays “poor little me”, the more she hardens the hearts of her worshippers so that they will stay home or vote for McCain rather than vote for Obama. The longer she keeps probing and poking, trying to force a misstep by Obama, the greater the chance she will. That’d be fair, if she could win by doing it. All she’d do is assure McCain’s coronation.

    It seems that’d be OK with you, as long as Obama didn’t win.

  • 23. Mary said: “Many Clinton supporters have genuine concerns about Obama that are not being addressed through the insults delivered in comments like these”

    What exactly are your genuine concerns about Obama? Aside from having more national political experience than Bill Clinton had in 1992 and also the whole African daddy thing. Those I already know about.

    Randi Roades today was upset about the Jeremiah Wright sermons and called for Obama to distance himself from Wright. Obama cannot do that without alienating his African American constituency. Look for this to change the dynamic a bit.

    Obama did distance himself from Wright not long after that. Nice call.

  • 34.Steve T said:
    – “Significant” states
    – Large states
    – Non-caucus states
    – Popular Vote
    – Contests he wasn’t even on the ballot for
    – Popular vote including contests he wasn’t even on the ballot for
    – Pennsylvania or bust!!!

    …and what else have I left out?

    Greg seems fascinated by the idea that only states with closed primaries should count.

  • What nuance of “rules” and “agreement” am I missing? The DNC made the rules in order to keep the primary from starting in December. MI and FL broke the rules and the candidates agreed not to participate in those races if they did. MI and FL went ahead anyway (although to the results legitimate in any way is absurd — how many people didn’t vote because they knew it wouldn’t count?).

    Everything was understood until HRC started bitching about it — after she’d agreed to the rules — because she saw an advantage for herself. Like Bush changing to a “freedom agenda” after the WMD didn’t work so well, HRC changed from what she’d agreed to to suddenly being concerned about “fairness.” The time to be concerned about fairness was when she agreed to abide by DNC rules. Of course, back then, she didn’t care less because she never dreamed she’d not lock up the nomination early.

    If the voters have a gripe, it’s with their states. If the DNC is concerned about the unintended consequences of it’s rules, then it has to decide what to do before the convention rolls around. If HRC became concerned about fairness after she agreed to the rules, her campaign should have petitioned the DNC. Instead, she made it a big public, media event for the PR it would generate.

  • Obama supporters on the other hand actually support the democratic process.

    I believe that’s a slip of the keyboard by Nell, but an accurate statement nevertheless.

    Obama has won more votes, more caucuses, more primaries, and more support across the board. Sounds like the people have spoken.

    Seriously, could one of the Clinton people offer a plausible scenario in which Clinton overtakes his lead in delegates and wins this? Anyone? Are you hoping for something other than a democratic result?

  • Someone needs to explain why the youth of our nation – OUR FUTURE LEADERS, should not be as entitled to their opinions as anyone else?

    This from a 21 year old via The Atlantic.

    There’s one salient reason why people of my age are supporting Obama and that’s because we feel that Obama will finally show us what it means to be proud of our president.

    I read more than I should about politics and US history and am always confused as to how Americans can love their president so. Intellectually I understand why Americans love(d) Lincoln and the Roosevelts but I never felt why they did.

    Andrew, people my age are too young to remember Bill Clinton. All we have is George W. Bush. The office of the President to us is a mockery. We don’t link President Bush to concepts such as leader, we link it to ignorance and idiocy. Most people my age have never felt proud of our President. We grew up on the Daily Show, we only know how to make fun of him and mock him.

    I attended an Obama rally a few days ago and was amazed at how filled up with emotion I was. Halfway through his speech, other 21 year olds just like that filled the Hall were screaming their heads off, waving banners, and grinning. Everyone was giddy, hell even I was giddy. I was smiling and chanting along to “Yes We Can.” I didn’t know what that feeling was because I had never felt it. But then I realized it. It was pride. I was proud of Obama.

    I know you’ve felt proud of Reagan and others have felt proud of Bill Clinton. I can’t wait to actually know what it feels like to be proud of my President and not embarrassed by him. That’s why at least my generation is turning out in droves to make Obama president. We’ve finally got a taste of what it feels like to be proud of our President and we’re not giving that feeling up.

    And for the record, I used to like Clinton, but I certainly do not like what she is doing now. If this is how she feels she needs to run her campaign, I’d have to do more than hold my nose to vote for her.

  • One minor way it could work in Clinton’s favor to push for re-voting: I have been saying for many weeks now that the one way I would not be able to vote for her if she were the Democratic nominee, is if she won the nomination by getting the delegates from bogus primaries in MI and FL seated.

    Strategically, it doesn’t seem to serve her well – I’m in full agreement with the analysis in the initial post. But it would, in my mind, remove the most egregious effort at “cheating” her way to the nomination.

  • Mary says… Calling Clinton a “bad person” because she wants…

    Actually, no one did. Are you referring to a different article?

  • Without a single more superdelegate making an endorsement, it is still possible for Clinton to move pretty close in the delegate count

    No, it really isn’t. To get within 100 pledged delegates of Obama, she needs to collect 53% of the remaining delegates, if you include Michigan and Florida among those states still to vote. She won’t win North Carolina, Montana, South Dakota or Oregon. If you assume a 50/50 split of the delegates in those four states, which I think sells Obama short, she needs 55% of the delegates in the other primaries. That includes states like Michigan and Indiana, where I suspect that she can hope for a tie.

    Add it up, and she needs to win all of Pennsylvania, Florida, Kentucky, and West Virginia, and she needs to win them all by margins similar to what she got in New York. Ten point wins, such as in Ohio, won’t get her enough delegates.

    Remember, that’s just to get within 100 pledged delegates of Obama. Actually catching him is an impossibility for her at this point.

  • “She’s in the weird position of being famous enough that the media is willing to grant her candidacy legitimacy long after other campaigns would have been written off.”

    There is the flaw. This race has been media driven. What makes anyone think that the media can’t flip this back to Hillary. They get the momentum going and if it will keep them selling Hot Pocket commercials, all bets are off.

    Obama takes a minor mis-step, the media hyper-inflates it, voters get nervous, and bam, there are your Superdelegates on a platter. Not likely, but plausible. The more the media keeps pushing the closeness of the race, the more likely it will occur.

  • Yo, Mary – read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html. I’m sure if there are any nits to pick you’ll find ’em, but it should satisfy most reasoning Democrats.

    Meanwhile, I’m interested to know how you know that all of Rev. Wright’s sermons for 20 years have been just like the 30 seconds or so of one that you’ve actually heard. If you don’t actually have information or experience to back that up, you are participating in the spread of slander and misinformation when you say “If Obama was able to attend 20 years of sermons like that, he isn’t ready to be the president of ALL of the people, in my opinion.”

    I know that you want to believe that – but it’s wrong. Try to understand that you are trying to see the best in your candidate and the worst in the one you consider “the other.” An understandable human feeling – but it gets in the way of seeing things the way they actually are.

  • So according to all the anti-Clinton comments, the race isn’t close and HRC should bow out.

    Do you understand the difference between “close” and “winnable”?

    If we’re playing basketball, and I’m down by six points, it’s still close. But if there’s just one second on the clock, it’s also unwinnable.

    You can LOL all you want, but it doesn’t get her the win.

  • For the record: I was rooting for Hillary Clinton to become the Democratic nominee to be the next President of the USA, before she even announced. I supported her until earlier this year. Why did I change my preference towards Obama?

    I liked BOTH candidates a lot, so something had to happen in order for me to think less of Hillary. What happened?

    Hillary Clinton has been spinning in a variety of ways that she feels that the delegates from MI & FL should count as well. She uses a ‘lame’ excuse about democracy and that EVERY vote should count. On the surface, that sounds honorable.

    To Mary and all the other Clinton supporters who keep on defending and offer ‘excuses’ / ‘reasons’. You can defend Hillary, but you need to stop making excuses and realize the facts… It is time to read the memorable quote: “You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts”

    The fact is that ALL the candidates agreed that MI & FL delegates would not count. Now that it is convenient for Hillary, she announced a few days ago on NPR that her proposal is: “To seat the MI & FL delegates and count all the votes in those primaries as the results are – or – do a complete re-vote. Nothing else would be acceptable.” (Hillary does not support a mail-in vote)

    Now you can spin this any which way you’d like; from an Obama perspective or from a Clinton perspective. You have to be honest and look at the facts, and realize that Hillary is suggesting to change the rules AFTER the fact; by asking the delegates to be seated, disregarding the fact that her name was the only one on the ballot.

    Obama says he’s OK with whatever the DNC decides the solution should be. Maybe he’s just talking a good game, and behind the scenes he’s pushing for something entirely different.

    I don’t like when people agree to one thing, and then act sanctimonious, when they start promoting something which is the opposite of what they agreed to.

    That is why I could never vote for McCain, or Romney because their flip-flopping makes Kerry look like an apprentice. Not to mention that Kerry’s so called ‘flip-flops’ where changes in his point of view on an issue, unlike McCain’s and Romney’s pandering to suck up to their conservative base.

    I don’t want to see any of those tactics in any Democratic nominee, regardless of the office he/she is running for.

    To Mary and the other Clinton supporters. I don’t think that Hillary is a ‘bad person’, I just don’t want to vote for someone who’s throwing Republican talking points towards the other candidate, and then trying to say that she didn’t say ‘those’ things.

    Hillary Clinton is an excellent politician and still has a lot of things to accomplish. I feel that Hillary would be far more successful as a Senator working on issues to improve on the dire state we find America in today.

    In my opinion, she’d be the perfect Senate Majority Leader. Out with Harry and in with Hillary. Let the Republican’s shaking in their boots begin.

  • Greg @ #15
    You guys are kidding yourself. All the wealthy retired people vote for Obama. And who said Obama will lose Michigan, you guys are dreaming. Michigan is Obama territory.

  • Clinton has now lost 14 of the last 17 contests (15 of 17 if you give Obama Texas since he won more delegates).

    She has lost 30 of 45 overall.

    She faces an insurmountable defecit in votes and deleagtes.

    Clinton can’t make 2=2=5. It’s game over.

  • I’m growing tired of all this “democracy” and “will of the people” spin…so i did a little number wrangling. What i found is that this big race is really not all that impressive if you actually put it in some sort of context (and i’m not surprised). Sure, someone winning 65% of the vote sounds like a big deal; it sounds like a crushing defeat…but it isn’t.

    Let’s take NY (one of Clinton’s biggest wins) as an example. It has a population of 18,976,457. As of the 2004 election, it boasted 8,624,000 registered voters. That number has almost certainly gone up, but i was lazy and used an easy source…before you bitch and cry foul, keep in mind that the lower, 04 numbers make democracy look a lot better. Sen Clinton garnered 1,003,623 to Sen Obama’s 697,914. This was reported as a 57-40% victory, and it was. The total number of votes in the Democratic primary was 1,701,537 (including Edwards), or 20% of the registered voters in 2004…or 9% of the population. Did i get my math right?

    So there you have it, Sen Clinton in a democratic landslide…winning 57% of 20% (of 9% if you want to get technical about democracy).

    Yes, let all the votes be counted, by all means. But don’t ask me to be impressed when the numbers look piddly in real terms. 57% of 20% isn’t a mandate for squat; at the very least, it shows that the vast majority of Americans just don’t care. Should they? Yes. But wishing it doesn’t make it so. And if you’re going to talk about “majorities” you might want to actually have one.

    (to Mary, Greg, Nell, et al…yes, the same argument works against Obama)

  • So according to all the anti-Clinton comments, the race isn’t close and HRC should bow out. — Nell, @47

    Are you familiar with the saying “Close, but no cigar”? Unless the Clinton campaign manages to make 2+2 come out as 6, it’s going to continue to be “close, but no cigar” in April, May, June and August. It’s pointless. She’s beating a dead horse. And the only thing she’s achieving in the process is more and more disenchantment with her.

    I went to a “Dem hens” lunch today in Charlottesville (home of University of Virginia). There were 8 of us. All pretty much middle aged, with the youngest 43, the oldest 75. Mostly middle and upper-middle class, all — except myself — professional women and high achievers. 2 months ago, 3 were for Clinton, 2 for Obama and 3 were undecided/makes no difference (their own preferred candidates having dropped out of the race or not getting any traction). Today, 7 were for Obama and only one — a 56 yr old, married to an unflinching Republican — was still for Clinton. Not because the rest are so enamoured of Obama, but because they’ve been so turned off by Clinton.

  • libra
    You think it’s pointless, but I don’t. Let’s just agree to disagree.
    I’m not turned off by Obama, but his “followers” can be very abrasive. Only Obama supporters claim that it’s hopeless. Most credible sources claim it will be decided on the Democratic convention floor. It’s a close race, and in the coming weeks it may be clear that Obama will prevail, but it may not. May we be born in interesting times.

  • Most credible sources claim it will be decided on the Democratic convention floor.

    I follow the political coverage fairly obsessively, and I haven’t seen a single account suggesting this is the most likely outcome. Could you please provide some citations and links?

  • “These arbitrary rules about how Clinton must win in order to be legitimate are just that, arbitrary made up rules designed to favor Obama.”
    What, are you saying that the rules that have been in place for, I would guess, years
    are suddenly an evil scheme perpetrated by the “Obamanites”?
    Could you send me some of what you are on?

  • “…arbitrary made up rules designed to favor Obama.”

    The rules and schedule were set in place by August 2006, nearly a full year before Obama even announced he was running in May 2007.

    But, as we all know, Obama is a time-traveling cyborg sent back from the future to destroy us all. He easily could have traveled back to 2006 and reprogrammed the primary and caucus rules to his benefit.

    Hey Mary, maybe if you stop insulting our intelligence, people would stop insulting you?

    Exactly.

  • I went to a “Dem hens” lunch today in Charlottesville (home of University of Virginia).

    Yeah, but that’s a college town in a swing state where they have black voters. Mark Penn said you don’t count.

  • If we’re playing basketball, and I’m down by six points, it’s still close. But if there’s just one second on the clock, it’s also unwinnable. -Henry

    That is a very good analogy.

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