When a funny thing happens on the way to the nomination

I’ve seen some arguments that Hillary Clinton’s victory in New Hampshire isn’t that surprising. Polls showed her with enormous leads in the state throughout 2007 — and as far back as 2006. That she managed to beat Barack Obama by five three points will help get her campaign back on track, but to characterize this as some kind of miraculous “comeback” is a bit of a stretch. She won where she was supposed to win.

The argument is not without merit, but I think this approach sells Clinton short. No one thought she could win. None of the campaigns, none of the pollsters, none of the experts, none of the locals — no one. Bill and Hillary assumed she would lose, as did the entire Clinton campaign staff.

This wasn’t one of those situations in which the campaign was saying, “Nobody believes us, but we’re going to do really well on Tuesday.” Just the opposite. Team Clinton not only expected to lose, they’d already started making post-defeat arrangements, including a minor staff shake-up that began yesterday afternoon.

And why not assume an Obama victory? His crowds in New Hampshire were not only huge, they were the biggest crowds anyone has ever seen in the state during a primary fight. His closing arguments were amazing. He had more volunteers and, thanks to a post-Iowa bounce, he led in literally every poll, as of yesterday morning. It’s not as if pundits were guessing; Obama really was in position to deliver.

But that obviously didn’t occur. What happened? How does a candidate trail by double digits on Sunday, and then win on Tuesday? Given a complex campaign dynamic, it wasn’t just one factor or event that moved the race in Clinton’s favor, but more likely, a combination of elements.

Here’s a rough sketch of the various factors, though I’m almost certain to miss a few:

The “Bradley Effect” — There’s been a phenomenon for years in which African-American candidates underperform against their poll numbers, because of what some have labeled the “Bradley Effect,” whereby white voters are embarrassed to admit to pollsters that they don’t support a black candidate. This strikes me as an unlikely explanation for Clinton’s victory, but there’s ample speculation about this in political circles today.

Going negative works — The Clinton campaign didn’t have much time after Iowa, but it immediately went negative on Obama, attacking him from a variety of directions, on everything from taxes to abortion to the 2005 energy bill. I thought this made the Clinton team look kind of desperate, and the barrage of unfocused attacks would start to wash each other out, but it’s certainly possible the negative campaigning shifted some undecided voters.

Saturday night’s debate — It’s inevitable to look for specific events that might have turned the tide in Clinton’s favor, and the only major event between the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary was the debate on Saturday night. I’ve seen some suggestions that Clinton benefited from Obama and Edwards “ganging up on her.” I think that’s wrong — Obama didn’t go negative at all; he didn’t have to — but if that was the perception, then it very well may have helped.

Media backlash — Isn’t it possible that flinty New Hampshire Dems decided they didn’t like the media picking the winner for them?

The pollsters stink — All of them? More than a half-dozen pollsters surveying one small state at the same time, and they’re all incompetent? While getting the Republican primary exactly right?

The Tears — It seems, at first glance, utterly ridiculous to think Hillary Clinton getting choked up on Monday might have propelled her to victory on Tuesday. And yet, it was the biggest political moment of the last several days, got wall-to-wall coverage in the media, drew a wildly inappropriate response from John Edwards, and may very well have contributed to some sympathy for Clinton. Keep in mind, women backed Obama in Iowa, but women backed Hillary in New Hampshire. (Before Clinton supporters argue, “It’s absurd to credit The Tears for Hillary’s success,” note that campaign chairman Terry McAuliffe credited the emotional moment for at least contributing to the victory.)

Let me add, as an aside, that some of this analysis may, on its face, seem silly. Why did one candidate beat another candidate? Because voters liked the winner better. It’s not rocket science.

But given the circumstances, there’s much more to this. It’s rare — indeed, it’s arguably unprecedented — to see this kind of surprise. Given this, it’s not unreasonable for political observers to tilt their heads and ask, “Huh?”

I think it was the tears.

If you look at the voting breakdown, Obama beat Clinton JUST AS HANDILY in NH as he did in Iowa among MEN.

Among WOMEN Obama beat Clinton by a modest margin in Iowa.. but was crushed by the woman vote in NH. Turn on the water works and the women will fall all over you.

  • It wasn’t Hillary’s tears that got to most women, it was the way it was portrayed by the media and the fact that the media has always treated Hillary badly. And this past week they were especially disgusting. She’s never been my first choice, but I was rooting for her last night and hoped the women of NH would flip the media the bird and they did. Thank you, women of NH. And the experience thing, that was very important.

  • First, let me state that I still think it was primarily the NH voters giving a big middle finger to Tweety, Punkinhead, and the rest of them.

    That said, CB, don’t you think that instead of just the horserace items you list above, that it might to some extent be HC’s slight policy differences with BO? Or maybe, just maybe, that the voters of NH valued HC’s experience more than OB’s? If these are the last two standing when this gets to DC, I am leaning Obama primarily as a vote against the Penn’s, McCauliff’s etc. that are on HC’s team. But maybe, just maybe, a horserace issue wasn’t the difference and it was something substantive instead.

  • i’d like to think it was her performance in the NH ABC debate, but based on what i saw last night wrt the huge percentage of ‘older’ female votes that she got i think there was an ’empathy bounce’ in there somewhere.

    watch for more ‘touchy-feely’ to be introduced in the days to come.

  • IMHO her emotions connected with the gals. BTW, there were no tears, so that’s not an accurate description of what happened.

    In contrast to Iowa last week – where Obama actually captured a larger share of female caucus goers – Clinton turned the tables yesterday, analysis of exit polls shows.

    She won 46% of women’s votes in New Hampshire, while Obama received just 34%. But what propelled her to victory was the huge female turnout, with women making up 57% of the Democratic party electorate.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections08/hillaryclinton/story/0,,2237714,00.html

  • I still think it’s the dedication factor. The trendlines had Obama, Edwards, and Richardson accurately predicted to within a couple of points, but sharply undercounted Clinton. I think that of the three, it’s Clinton’s supporters that are the most dedicated, so perhaps post-Iowa, they wavered but it wasn’t enough time to convince them to change their vote.

    The woman angle is noteworthy too.

  • I don’t think she’s going to get touchy feely so much as just change her words. Up until recently she emphasized what she was going to do, now she seems to be saying what “we’re” going to do.

  • I don’t think the “Bradley Effect” is a valid charge this time. Obama got about the percentage of voters who had declared themselves for him in the polls.

    The undecideds simply broke for Hillary. That’s a problem with polls, they can’t necessarily predict how people who won’t answer them are going to vote.

    And if it was because of the tears, good on Hil. She’s needed to show a little humanity, and if a few seconds of eyes full of UNSHED tears and a choked up voice raspy from days of non-stop talking got the NH electorate to focus on her and say (despite what the pundits told them) that Hillary could do it, then that’s okay by me.

    And I think John needs to move away from the “We’re change and you’re not!” meme before next week’s debate in Nevada.

  • When early results were announced for Dixville Notch – which I assumed was pretty indicative of NH politics – went big for Obama, I figured he had a lock on the state. How shocked was I when it turned for Clinton statewide.

    This extends the nomination process til Feb 5th, which is a good thing. Gives more Dems the right to choose.

  • I am 65 and i can assure you she WILL NOT get my vote. She had her chance to make a differene and did nothing. She is bout and paid for.
    ann lewis, Arkansas

  • I’m for the media backlash. The fact that the media had almost anointed Obama with the nomination, after only ONE STATE had voted, made people realize that if they don’t step up and vote, the powers that be will choose their candidates for them.

    In that I find a silver lining in the cloud that is Bu$h: I think people realize now that voter apathy can lead to disastrous results, that if we are not a powerful force in the process, we’ll get stuck with another nightmare.

  • …But then again, the two ended in really almost a tie– and both walk out with the same number of delegates. Remember, New Hampshire was supposed to be where she won big– and Obama almost overcame that.

    Frankly, I think that the hype and the ridiculous numbers coming out of polls the past few days underscores the problems with polling.

    Think about it. Smart, informed people don’t walk into the ballot-box and flip a coin (or otherwise make their decision there) on something like this. Most of the people who planned to vote for Clinton a month ago probably did yesterday– shocker!

    What is more shocking is that people were so quick to accept the crazy numbers that polls showed for changes since Iowa. And spin accounts for a lot of it.

    Yesterday really is about an Obama win– he definitely made inroads in the votes for Hillary– just not enough to actually pass her– hardly shocking for less than a week… (But I bet you won’t read that in a single paper)

  • We’ve neglected the Diebold effect — every other outcome was about as predicted (validating the polls more or less). Hillary-Obama came out reversed. Something like this happened to Kerry-Dean in 2004. The same Diebold machines are in place. Just sayin’.

  • Babba,

    I agree with you 100% that the media’s portrayal of her “emotional moment” was disgusting and mocking. Their message basically was “Obama is a hero and a saint, Hillary is a simpering loser HA HA HA look at her cry! You WILL vote for Obama!’

    Ironically I badly want Obama to beat her (he is far and away the superior politician and our best chance come Nov. ) and I feel crushed by the results last night. But the media was just shameless.

  • I think you got this exactly right.

    And I will push it one step further.
    New Hampshire is filled with woman who sound exactly (crassy and brassy) like Hillary.

    She boo-hooed…
    Her sound-alikes came out in droves.

    The only think you are missing in your analysis is Bill’s sucker punch.
    His “fairy tale” comment was a well-placed sock-to-the-balls:

    The Bush-Clinton junta is your reality people.
    We are your masters.
    Don’t get your hopes up mother#%@*ers.
    We control everything.

  • Babba said: “I don’t think she’s going to get touchy feely so much as just change her words. Up until recently she emphasized what she was going to do, now she seems to be saying what “we’re” going to do.”

    I certainly heard that same thing in her victory speech. I think she’s taken a moment (probably while waiting for the polls to report) to listen to the comparisons between her very selfish sounding rhetoric (I, me, my, mine) and Obama’s very inclusive rhetoric (we, us, our, you, your) and decided she needed to change her message.

    CB wrote: “Going negative works.”

    Wasn’t Edwards being rather negative during the debate (from all reports, I didn’t watch). And I don’t think all of Obama’s Rhetoric can be called position (“You’re likable enough”?). Nope, I don’t think I buy that argument. In fact some of Hillary’s “negative” lines really caused problems.

  • I think that it was media backlash, especially when everyone was talking about Hillary dropping out when most of NH hadn’t even voted yet.

    Plus the pollsters stink. No one would argue about that any more.

  • RacerX, thank you. THERE WERE NO TEARS! (Did anyone catch The Daily Show? He did a great bit on it last night. Boehner produces tears on a regular basis like a little kid who fell down and went boom, HRC choked up in an emotional, and what seemed to me a heartfelt moment and all of a sudden she’s just a girl. Steve, I love ya but, THERE WERE NO TEARS!)

    That said, I am not a HRC fan but I have to say I am so f()cking tired of the media playing the cards they have been; the double standards for the old, white boys.

    The outrageously sexist comments that spew forth from almost every political commentator is making me REALLY WANT to vote for HRC just because she’s a woman and this is just disgusting. I was watching last night and to hear some of the most overt sexist crap come out of the mouths of these a$$holes infuriated me. I was spitting fire listening to these boneheads.

    If the media keeps this up, they are going to get women out in absolute droves because none of us like to be subjected to that and I guarantee you that we all have at one time or other.

    HRC would be a consolation prize to me (I was strongly Edwards until he said what he said [and why Elizabeth didn’t smack him one, I don’t know], but after that I just lost respect for him – which equated to losing my vote. I am now solidly Obama – which I was not before. I am tired of this double standard. Obama is black. HRC is a woman. And if this country can’t deal with either of that, I would like to officially stand up and give each person who can’t accept it a giant cup of STFU – and I assure you it would be quite heartfelt and sincere.

  • What’s the latest with the Michigan primary? Will the delegates count towards the nomination? Will any of the serious dems campaign there?

  • I’m moving this comment up from 2 threads ago because everyone has moved on.

    “What I can’t understand are the independents I read about (and saw interviewed on the TeeVee) who, up until the last minute, couldn’t decide between McCain and Obama. WTF is up with that?”

    Independents who couldn’t decide between Obama and McCain wanted to place their vote where it would do the most “good.” That is, if it’s a tight race between Obama and Clinton, they’ll vote for Obama because they like him better than her. If it’s a tight race between McCain and Romney, they’ll vote for McCain because they like John better than Mitt.

    I think 2 things happened. Obama looked like such a blow-out that independents didn’t think he needed their help and voted for McCain. And democrats, especially women, were so thoroughly disgusted by the sexist misogynistic coverage bordering on glee at her projected defeat that they cast a protest vote for Hillary, even if they preferred Obama. Clinton tearing up certainly helped, by humanizing her.

    One thing is clear – there was no “Wilder-Bradley effect” – people didn’t lie about planning to vote for a Black man because they were ashamed of being racist. Matt Yglecias has a nice chart up showing that Obama got just about exactly as many votes as were projected for him. It was Clinton who got way more than were projected for her.

  • In reading the comments in a number of places over the last several days, I noted that there were an awful lot of them from women who – like me – may not have been huge fans of Hillary, but who were incensed at the way she was being treated – and I think you cannot discount that as a factor yesterday.

    It wasn’t so much what Hillary did, it was more how the media reacted to everything she said and did, down to discussing whether she actually cried, or only teared up, whether that was a tactic, as opposed to a show of genuine emotion, and characterizing her responses in the debate as some variation of strident or angry.

    I’m pleased that the polls and the pundits were not only wrong, but wildly so. It keeps this thing alive and kicking, and may have put the talking heads in their place, or at least made them more cautious.

    Now, I’ve found myself wondering who these candidates – on both sides of the aisle – would select as their VP – because I think that might make a difference for a lot of people.

  • I find it a little hard to believe that the Bradley Effect: 1) persists to such an appreciable extent in northeastern liberals; and 2) would benefit a female candidate over a white male alternative. Bigots tend to be bigoted on racial and gender axes, and I would think that if Obama lost votes due to this effect, they would have gone to Edwards rather than Clinton. But more than that, I don’t really think there could be that many racists among New Hampshire Democratic primary voters in the first place.

  • A “big middle finger to” the MSM and the pundits, especially Bill Kristol, David Brooks and the inept Mark Shields.

  • MsJoanne said: “(I was strongly Edwards until he said what he said [and why Elizabeth didn’t smack him one, I don’t know]”

    Now MsJoanne, we have no idea what happened in the privacy of their hotel room later that day. I’m confident that Elizabeth smacked him good, but there is no advantage in going before the cameras later and saying “Elizabeth smacked me a good one and I’m here to say that Hillary is tough enough to be President even if she had to control her tears over a question about how she’s standing up to (provenly unfair) media onslaught claiming she’s lost the nomination.”

  • Why did Hillary win in New Hampshire last night? Possibly it’s because of what I like to call the Wisconsin Public Radio effect, when during WPR’s talk shows women tend to email in questions are are less likely to call in. The analogy being that women are more likely to cast a vote in a private booth than show up at a face-to-face caucus. If that’s is the case, Hillary just might do better than people have expected given how most states are primary rather than caucus states. Or it might have something to do with how many women still do double-duty by working eight hours and then coming home to do housework, etc. In any case, women did turn out in big numbers and the voted for Hillary Clinton. For those who think it was just the tears, I suspect it’s more how Hillary Clinton has been treated over the years – than is, in a very sexist and mean way by Republicans. As a Democrat, while I have my reservations about Hillary Clinton as a candidate it is crazy as far as I’m concerned to be reinforcing the GOP’s spin about her.

  • My favorite point of the evening: watching CNN declare McCain the winner with 5% more than Romney while at the same time watching Anderson Cooper asking how Hillary would deal with second place when she was winning by 4%. CNN did not declare her the winner until Obama came out and gave his concession speech.

    The ridiculous coverage of the “emotional” moment by ALL news outlets definitely was a factor. I sent her money out of disgust. And the near deification of Obama by everyone also was a factor. As someone said in another thread, the nomination process is about examining the candidates, not glorifying them. It felt like everyone wants a saviour, not a leader. If we all turn into one gigantic cult, who wins?

  • I still think it was the NH gals reacting to HRC’s media mugging, but Castor Troy also makes an interesting point:

    [Obama] definitely made inroads in the votes for Hillary– just not enough to actually pass her– hardly shocking for less than a week… (But I bet you won’t read that in a single paper)

    Indeed. What we saw was almost an upset, but since the media narrative was for a huge Obama win, this squeaker was seen as a big win for Hillary instead of what it was: a narrow victory where she was supposed to do much better. As Okie says the polls apparently stunk, so add in a reasonable margin of error and what happened was about what was generally predicted, plus a slight Iowa bounce for Obama. Now the NH bounce will go for HRC, so the SC race becomes more important for Obama. It’s a shame that the media narrative plays so strongly into this whole race, if we all got to vote at once they wouldn’t get to play the expectations game to skew the next race.

    What does it say about us as a nation when a few dozen bobbleheads can skew the most important decision we get to make as a society, by focusing so hard on some random stuipid event (i.e. Dean’s scream, Hillary’s “tears”)???

    I think it’s pretty obvious that the media has a lot more influence than they should and I wish someone in power would point that out and do something about it. It just keeps getting worse every cycle and I see no end in sight.

  • There may well have been a backlash against the media pile-on against Clinton for the last few days before the vote, but I think the media all decided that they were going to ignore the large numbers of undecideds in their rush to show how smart they were by naming the winner ahead of time.

    Also everyone ignored that Iowa was essentially a dead heat (for that matter, so is New Hampshire). It is still too early to be sure what is going to happen, and I think that is a good thing. However, you will never hear the MSM talk about how many times they get their predictions wrong.

    One final comment is about the difference in the split of women in Iowa vs. New Hampshire. CB made a general observation about it last week before the Iowa caucuses, but he and everyone seem to have forgotten about it since. Iowa is not a secret ballot! How many Iowa women attending the caucuses with their husbands wanted to vote for the woman candidate, but couldn’t publicly walk away from their husband to stand on the other side of the room? In a secret ballot they can say, “Yes, dear. I agree with you.” on the way to the polling place and then vote the way they want when they are in the booth. That is the whole reason for a secret ballot.

  • As an insensitive clod of a guy, my view of Hillary’s emotional moment what that it was genuine emotion that stopped significantly short of tears (not that that should have mattered either way), in an entirely understandable response to fatigue, stress, disappointment about the expected results after working so hard and so long, and a completely unacceptable level of abuse from the press. She’s not my favorite, but even I felt that she really needed a hug, or at least a sympathy vote.

    I’m leaning to an explanation that consists of nearly equal parts of the power of the Clinton political machine, people returning to their long-term committments to Hillary, a Hillary sympathy / protest vote, and a Bradley effect.

  • I very much agree with this analysis by Markos. I am far from a HRC sympathizer but I was disgusted by the sheer meanness and piling on that occurred during the few days before the N.H. election. I don’t know what I would have done if I had been a N.H. voter but I was feeling like I could vote for her just to spite the assholes mindlessly tearing her down. And I’m not a woman. If I was, I could see feeling much more anger than even I was and really wanting to push back against that crap.

    Lo and behold, women came out strongly for HRC in N.H. Imagine that.

    Memo to the anti-Clinton brigades
    by kos
    Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 07:02:21 AM PST

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/9/93912/04225/727/433534

    But the more assholish her detractors behave, the more you help her. The way she was treated the past few days in New Hampshire was a disgrace, and likely a large reason for her surprise victory. So keep attacking her for bullshit reasons, and you’ll be generating more and more sympathy votes for her. Obama’s “you’re likable enough” was likely worth 2-3 points all by its lonesome self.

  • I have to agree with Babba, Anne and a few others.

    Speaking as a well-aged female and a JE supporter, I was not swayed by HRC’s show of “emotion”, but by the mostly male sexist responses to it that filled the media and blogosphere. I even found myself defending her!

  • It wasn’t Hillary’s tears that got to most women, it was the way it was portrayed by the media and the fact that the media has always treated Hillary badly. -Babba

    I agree that if that situation moved the numbers at all, it was because of the way the media handled it and not the actual event at all.

    What’s the latest with the Michigan primary? Will the delegates count towards the nomination? -Dudley

    The Democratic Party revoked the Michigan and Florida delegates, I believe.

    My wife said something last night that resonated with me. NH has semi-open primaries meaning any moderate Republicans who wanted to vote in the Democratic primary were barred from doing so. This could also help explain the difference between the polls and the primary.

    Do any of those polls have a gender breakdown to compare to the primary? Seems like Clinton handily won among women.

  • Swan-diving in response to Racerx, that’s true – if we had this result without Iowa, following the status quo right before the New Year , the media view would be very positive for Obama. He’d have done better than expected against the Clinton machine, pulled within striking distance, etc., etc.

    Also, “horse-race” coverage and the compressed schedule distort the process significantly.

  • I still believe that one of the factors may have been that many N.H. indies were struck with American Idol Syndrome. They assumed their first choice (Obama) had it made, so they voted in the Republican primary to give McCain a hand (notice the unexpected additional votes for him). I can’t help but wonder if there are some independent McCain voters who are kicking themselves this morning.

  • “IT IS ENOUGH THAT THE PEOPLE KNOW THERE WAS AN ELECTION. THOSE WHO CAST THE VOTES DECIDE NOTHING. THOSE WHO COUNT THE VOTES DECIDE EVERYTHING.”
    JOSEPH STALIN

    We cannot brush off the question about vote counting integrity. There is a small, dedicated group of brave souls out there that are digging up a lot of dirt of how vote counting is manipulated. Unfortunately nobody is paying attention. We all should be digging deeper into this issue.

  • Actually, I’ll bet that The Choke-Up (there were no tears, so I refuse to label the incident as such) helped Clinton a lot more than folks here and elsewhere realize. And I can use a personal example to prove it.

    My wife, a.k.a. The Mrs, is so far to the left she makes me look like Rush Limbaugh, so she’s never been that big a fan of the centrist and corporate Clinton.

    But once she saw that moment on the news, the first thing she said was, “You know, I like her a LOT more now. She actually showed some emotion!”

    She then went on to note that many will think it was staged, but that, for her, it seemed incredibly genuine. And considering all the Clinton’s have gone through, “it was nice to see it finally get to her … she acted like a freakin’ human being for a change.”

    Add in backlash from the media playing the “See, Women Are Weak!” card, and The Mrs may very well vote for Clinton in the Missouri primary. (Note: I probably won’t—I’d like to write in Feingold, but not sure they allow that 😉 —but I have to admit I see Hillary in a slightly different light now.)

    To think many others didn’t have that same change of heart in New Hampshire fails to give enough credit to the emotional side of voting — the one that makes voters connect with a candidate on some level, even when that candidate’s policies are deeply flawed. We on the left have ignored that aspect far too often, and it’s why that whole “Love to Have a Beer With Bush” meme floated around. It’s real, experienced by both men and women, incredibly effective, and something we really need to acknowledge and not be afraid of all the time (the media inanity be damned).

    And in the end, it very well may help Clinton edge out Obama in some tight races.

  • Dudley,

    I’m a Michigander, and the news about our primary is that it is f—ed up. Obama and Edwards took themselves off the ballot, leaving Clinton alone at — one local columnist has called — “the dork’s table”. The weird part is that we cannot write in a vote; if you write in a name (even though the absentee ballots have a place for writing in a name) your ballot gets thrown away. We’re allowed to vote for Clinton, Kucinich, or Gravel…or uncommitted.

    Clinton has nothing to gain and everything to lose here. How would it look if she only won against “uncommitted” by a few points? Or even lost? Basically, she has to landslide it. But Michigan Democrats are up in arms, so its hard to tell which way the chips will fall. Will they vote for Clinton in droves because she’s actually on the ballot? Will they hand her a defeat at the hands of “uncommitted” to send a message? Or will they just stay home?

    And the wildcard is that we can cross party lines to play with the Republicans for the day.

    Michiganders are fed up beyond belief on a number of issues; political discussion here as become completely irrational. Really, anything could happen.

  • Remember NH is a conservative state. It went Democratic in 2006 for the first time since the 19th century. If Hillary is perceived as the most “establishment” Democrat then that might explain some of the movement in her direction. And, while I live in a small town in NH, our ballots were all paper. No machines. There were also fears all over the state that, because of the huge turnout, polling places might run out of ballots.

  • one thing i find interesting about hillary’s ’emotional moment’ is that no one really focused on what she was saying whilst welling up. the words were really a thinly veiled attack on her rivals about their unreadiness for the job, her ‘concern’ over the direction of the country (if not guided by her, and only her, experienced hands), how it’s really personal for her (too) and wouldn’t it really be too bad if the inevitability of her reign didn’t come to pass.

    the ‘moment’ seems to have achieved a desired effect, but really, it’s still the same old wolf under those new clothes.

  • Now, I’ve found myself wondering who these candidates – on both sides of the aisle – would select as their VP – because I think that might make a difference for a lot of people.

    That’s an excellent point, but I doubt anyone will give much in the way of an answer until after Feb. 5.

    While an Obama/Clinton (or Clinton/Obama … whatever) could easily trounce any GOP ticket, hands down, there’s simply too much campaign-driven acrimony between HRC and BO. It’d be great in terms of votes, but I doubt it’ll happen.

    IMHO, Bill Richardson will in all likelihood be selected as VP no matter who gets the nod. Edwards won’t be second banana again (he’s already said as much), Dodd is of better use in the Senate, and Kucinich needs to start focusing on his seat, lest he lose it. Biden has the guts, but I just can’t see that happening due his never-ending battle with Foot-In-Mouth disease.

    That leaves Richardson, who easily (and by a wide margin) has the perfect blend of experience and charisma to be a great VP candidate. He’s been the one I’ve been pushing for VP since he entered the race.

    Again, just my opinion. YMMV.

    🙂

  • infinityone, please cite who is doing the investigating? I would be very interested in that. Electronic voting machines have been a craw in my cap for a while. They are too easily hacked and since the company that owns them is a GOP backer, that’s not a good thing. Please give links.

    entheo, if you listen to what HRC choked up on, it was not a veiled attack, it was why she was doing what she was doing. What she said next was the thinly veiled attack. Her moment of emotion came before that. Go watch it again.

  • Let me just say that Obama’s “You’re likeable enough” captures exactly how I feel. I get irritated at the claim that people who say Hillary isn’t likeable are inevitably sexist and just cannot deal with strong women. Romney isn’t likeable. Thompson isn’t likeable. Guiliani is about as far from likeable as possible. But so is Hillary, as much of Middle America feels keenly. There are lots of reasons for this, not least of which is the fact that she seems to be a heaping pile of inside the beltway “conventional wisdom”, but any way you slice it, she really is just “likeable enough.

    That said, early assumptions of Obama’s inevitable claim on the nomination and the ridiculous reporting on her tears (and the “Iron my shirts!” idiots) are waay beyong the pale. It just irritates me that Obama’s response is cast in the same light.

  • I think people watch the MSM news entirely too much. I only got the Hillary’s emotional moment from a few sites and it didn’t seem like a big deal. From the comments here, it seemed it may have turned NH around, along with the media’s usual overzealous bashing of her.

    I am an Obama supporter. Period. Neither Hillary near tears or Edwards, if he should, screaming like a howler monkey will change that. I didn’t stop supporting Dean after the “scream either”.

    A good candidate is a good candidate.

    I would have chosen Hillary if she hadn’t chosen to support the war for as long as she did and if Obama hadn’t come along, I probably still would have supported her, war or no.

    Edwards – he seems to be a good guy, but he doesn’t seem to have the starch in his spine that Obama does. Edwards seems more like – well me, and I’d never be a good president. Pissed off and ready to tilt at windmills – while it would be nice to have a fighter for the right things in the white house, we’ve had enough infighting the past 8 years. I want someone who will do what Bush said he would do and didn’t: unite, not divide.

    And then there’s Obama. He doesn’t seem to take all the bashing so personally. He really knows the issues and he knows the challenges he faces. He knows what’s at stake, not just for America but for the world and when he says hope and change I believe he will do exactly that – inspire hope and instill change – for the better and for everyone not just the privileged few as with Bush/ Cheney – for the ones who are deemed worthy – as with Clinton – and for anyone who doesn’t get in Edwards way.

    Obama is in it for everyone – and I like that about him very much.

  • What MsJoanne said in #43.

    Where exactly is this notion of vote manipulation coming from? I know it’s been done before, but why should I think it’s been done here?

    Obama GOT everybody who said to the pollsters they would vote for him. Why should we be suspicious that he didn’t get more?

    As for Clinton’s attack during/after her ’emotional moment’, I find that impressive. She can get on and stay on message so well.

    She’s going to have Republican’t SH*T thrown at her every moment. She needs to be able to dish it back out.

  • MarkD, you’re assuming that the VP wouild have to be one of the existing contenders, and I think that is unlikely – unless it is some combination of Edwards and Obama. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that Edwards can see as easily as anyone else that running as Obama’s VP – or even Hillary’s, for that matter – would have him as the de facto nominee eight years from now, when he will be only 62. Assuming a successful 8 years, he sails into the WH as president.

    When Hillary is considered, the names Evan Bayh and Tom Vilsack come to the fore – and I think of both of them as being so beige as to be virtually invisible – although I suppose they have their demographic. Wesley Clark might be a good choice, and he’s already on her team.

    I worry about Obama picking another “unity” type – which means that someone like Bayh would fit that model for him, as well. Ugh.

    You’re right, it’s too early to know, but something on my mind.

  • We should all keep in mind how polls work. The take a SAMPLE of the whole population, NOT the whole population. This is why there is a error rate of 3 to 5 % on every poll. Further, that 3 to 5% is for EACH candidate’s numbers in both directions. In other words, Obama was polling on average 9 points higher than Clinton, but if his numbers were over repoted by, say, 4% and hers were under reported by that same 4%, then you have a one point difference.

    Then add into the mix that Edwards had been polling at around 20 to 22% and got 17% then things become even more interesting. Clinton’s voctory could just as easily be tied to peeling away Edwards supporters as it was to female voters.

    As has already been pointed out, Obama got pretty much exactly the numbers predicted by the polls (within the margin or error), so Clinton’s votes came from somewhere else. I believe the race was closer than people thought and a few Edwards supporters decided to vote for Clinton.

  • I wonder what this new “Hillary Effect” will have on the national election should Hill win the nomination. If a woman is abused and humiliated in public purely because of her gender will the abuse generate a sympathetic wave of support? If the RNC, 527’s and the media get into a big pile-on to try to defeat a Hillary presidential run, it will be interesting to witness whether the public will instead run to her aid as a bulwark against the misogynist abuse. It’s all kind of anti-Rovian: what some assume as her biggest weakness could be her biggest strength. This nation is notorious in rooting for the underdog.

  • Clinton’s voctory could just as easily be tied to peeling away Edwards supporters as it was to female voters. -independent thinker

    Maybe the backlash from his reaction to her emotional moment pushed the women who backed him into her camp? Is there any evidence to suggest a gender gap among support for Edwards last night?

  • Petesmom (#21),

    I think 2 things happened. Obama looked like such a blow-out that independents didn’t think he needed their help and voted for McCain. And democrats, especially women, were so thoroughly disgusted by the sexist misogynistic coverage bordering on glee at her projected defeat that they cast a protest vote for Hillary, even if they preferred Obama.

    I agree with you…I would call this the American Idol effect. Not sure if it is real, but it kind of makes sense…you think the front runner is safe, so you vote for your second or third choice to make sure they stay around too — then surprise! The frontrunner wasn’t as safe as you thought (qqv Melinda Doolittle).

    The main point being the destructive nature of the media coverage…the media is supposed to be an impartial observer of news events, not a participant. It definitely angers me that they could be de facto assigning us a president. But then, they really couldn’t do that if people just ignore the polls and vote for the candidate they actually like the best (yes, it’s blame the victim time 🙂

  • Hillary’s not one of those women who wakes-at-noon to ready themselves for the next evenings dinner party, or jets-off on frequent vacations to play with friends in Paris or the tropics, or has like 5 kids that she wants to see grow-up to give her grand-children. Instead Clinton has spent 35 years dedicated to government service. Most mornings she gets up, puts on the pant suit and works hard all day long at studying issues, endless meetings, telephone calls, travel and speeches…Our retail politics is (still) mostly a tedious analog grind, as opposed to sitting in an office and effortlessly riding digital~light~waves.

    In her acceptance speech last night, Hillary made reference to ‘finding her voice.’ If she has then okay, good, because sometimes she’ll hit a false note…Obama sings loud & clear, “We can overcome!” Maybe Hillary is now ready to focus her skills on helping preserve, protect & defend America’s middle-class from assault. After all, isn’t that what a Democrat President is supposed to do?

  • What I would like to know is the percentage of absentee voters.

    When I was involved in professional politics and was in a tight race, we pushed and pushed supporters to vote absentee, because that way the votes were already made, regardless of what happened between then and election day. I know for a fact that the Clinton campaign was pushing that here in California. They would have been sure to be doing that in New Hampshire, back before Christmas – when Hillary was still the “inevitable winner” – and people might have voted to be “with the winner.”

    Not saying this was decisive, but given how important absentee balloting has become in recent campaigns, I am surprised the only place I have seen this discussed was in an article in the LA Times yesterday about how the Clinton campaign had been pushing supporters to vote absentee now that the ballots were mailed out on Monday. This is the kind of thing that can be crucial in a tight race.

  • As for Hillary’s “tear up,” that was such a manufactured “Oprah moment” I am amazed anyone believed it. That question was such a plant – she “tears up,” has her Oprah Moment, then she sticks in the shiv. Standard-isue Clinton bullshit and they continue to prove that Mencken was right.

    God, eight more years of Clinton psychopathology, er, I mean psychodrama. It’s a nice “shiny object” to keep people otherwise occupied and unaware of the sleight-of-hand going on in the shaodws where things get done to keep things going where the corporate masters want it. Just like Billy-boy on DADT, NAFTA, the Balkans, Rwanda, and everything else he didn’t deliver on, instead giving us what we didn’t want.

  • Nonsense. It wasn’t any different that Obama’s huge win in Iowa which was unexpected. I still don’t agree with your assessment that Edwards gave a “wildly inappropriate response” which is only your interpretation. He actually said, “I have nothing to say about that” and then went on to explain how hard it is and how tough one has to be and that he is that tough…period.
    Also, why is it “going negative” to point out another candidate’s record or plan. The media takes great leeway when they twist what is said to fit their scenario.

    I also find it fascinating that given what the GOP has to choose from that a McCain win is actually considered a victory. Winning the category of “least pathetic” is hardly a victory.

    I wish more people would google Operation Mockingbird and stop being so naive about the corporate owned media. Even Sibel Edmonds makes it clear that the amount of blackmail and bribery that is perpetrated not only on our congress but on the members of the press is very real. Kennedy tried to dismantle the CIA…unsuccessfully. We will see much more of this influence once we finally have a nominee. BTW…Obama is not Muslim, he’s Christian and he didn’t swear in on the Koran but the Bible (which shouldn’t make any difference)…and Hillary is not a Lesbian…but it is true that McCain is insane-ha.

  • *(**comment 56*** geez Cleaver…how did you get so damn cynical? btw…the Clinton administration wasn’t perfect but it was sure as hell pretty progressive from what had been before and 100X better than what we have now. Comparing Hillary to Oprah? Get real. You’re just trying to be funny right? The republican congress is ‘most’ of what was screwing up the Clinton administration. I’m not a Hillary supporter but I don’t believe she’s that contrived or that voters are so easily duped…any longer.

  • I was thinking of an explanation for the Iowa-NH difference this morning and came up with a pretty darned simple one. Human beings ultimately prefer to vote for other human beings.

    Hear me out. In Iowa, HRC was the mechanical, steely, robo-candidate by whom you would be assimilated because she was inevitable. Obama was the warm, real human being. Obama won.

    In NH, his fault or not, Obama became superhuman, he was messianic, he was no longer with us mere mortals, with his aloof “you’re likable enough” and all. HRC was now the human one, pained, tired, no longer mechanical. HRC won.

  • Comment 21: I think 2 things happened. Obama looked like such a blow-out that independents didn’t think he needed their help and voted for McCain. And democrats, especially women, were so thoroughly disgusted by the sexist misogynistic coverage bordering on glee at her projected defeat that they cast a protest vote for Hillary, even if they preferred Obama. Clinton tearing up certainly helped, by humanizing her.

    Comment 41: one thing i find interesting about hillary’s ‘emotional moment’ is that no one really focused on what she was saying whilst welling up. the words were really a thinly veiled attack on her rivals about their unreadiness for the job, her ‘concern’ over the direction of the country (if not guided by her, and only her, experienced hands), how it’s really personal for her (too) and wouldn’t it really be too bad if the inevitability of her reign didn’t come to pass.

    the ‘moment’ seems to have achieved a desired effect, but really, it’s still the same old wolf under those new clothes.

    Yes and yes. The indies came out for McCain because it looked like he needed the help–and saved Her Majesty in the process, perhaps unwittingly. Though the Republicans aren’t exactly upset at the renewed prospect of running against the most polarizing public figure in the country, someone who embodies the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” principle that’s their only hope of keeping their unholy coalition together for Four More Years of plunder.

    At the same time, I think the “emotion,” manufactured or not, did help win her some sympathy. Fool that I am, I immediately glommed on to the petulant, snide, entitled and nasty remark that immediately followed it–“Some of us are ready and some of us aren’t.” Yeah, and “some of us” knew George Bush couldn’t be trusted as far as he could be thrown, and “some of us” voted to enable him anyway out of a cowardly fear of being labeled “weak on terror.” After all, it’s not Chelsea thrown into the meat grinder, and it’s not Bill’s six-figure speaking fees that go to pay for the war.

    Clinton represents the worst of all worlds–a substantive continuation of the Bush worldview and style, if not policies; AND a rallying cry for the worst people in the country to continue their depredations. The press hates her (not entirely fairly, but still); independents hate her. If she runs, the election is about *her* rather than the referendum the country needs on Bush’s term; if she somehow wins, the forces of reaction get a full pass on what Bush did to this country, and we all have to sit through four more years–it will just be four, I promise that–of what Tom C. rightly called the Clintons’ psychopathology.

  • dajafi– thanks for a really good response on Clinton’s tearing up.

    I watched the video, too, and it bothered me. (and this from a person who worker for both her husband’s campaigns– I am certainly not a Clinton detractor)

    This wasn’t a woman crying because she was upset about the future of the country, but rather a person who was upset about her own personal future. The way that she immediately broke into attacks on Obama made it very clear– her tears weren’t about “us”, they were about “me”.

    So, please, tell me why anyone should have switched their vote to her, merely for crying in her beer over a few bad days? Sure, this might be the media’s favorite new idea (just 24 hours after their last favorite idea that Obama would win by like 200%), but I think we have learned (at least I hope so) to take their ideas with a serious grain of salt.

  • Zeitgeist @#59,

    Interesting theory/analysis. Now that Obama has lost in NH, would you expect him to become more “mortal” in your analysis? And if so, what are the implications for the next several contests?

  • Edo- I have to echo that. By all accounts, Obama hasn’t changed his message in months– he has been very steady and on-message in what he has decided to stay (remember the dust-up when he was way down in the polls, and his folks were debating whether he should just choose a different tack?). The clear difference here was the media’s incorrect interpretation of the reality on the ground.

    That being said, I think this result was a good thing for Obama. After the surprising results in Iowa, the media had almost annointed him… Instead, the reality of the ground-battle continues, and expectations should be slightly tempered after this. The reality is that both Obama and Clinton are good candidates– and, considering that anything that breathes is better than the past 7 years, it’s not hard to better the current occupant. This will be a long, tough battle. And it’s better, I think, for supporters of Obama to realize that immediately, rather than a month from now. Maybe then, those independents won’t go wandering off elsewhere, and realize that their vote for him means something.

  • Obama said “you’re likeable enough, without a doubt”, if you listen carefully..If that is considered a put down worth 2 to 3 points as someone said, so help us…By the way, Hillary swears like a trooper, but off camera and off mike.

  • Castor Troy,

    Agreed. On all counts.

    and, considering that anything that breathes is better than the past 7 years…

    Guiliani being the exception that proves this rule. 😉

  • I think Senator Clinton won because she did several Q&A’s in NH prior to the primary. When you hear her respond so intelligently and clearly to questions on so many different issues, with concrete plans and salient statistics, she’s very easy to picture in the White House, cleaning up the BushCo disaster and steering our country back on course.

    Senator Obama is an amazing public speaker, but he often answers substantive questions in a vague manner, concentrating on hope rather than specifics. I’m not in NH, but that’s cost him my primary vote, and perhaps some of the voters there agree.

  • I think Senator Clinton won because she did several Q&A’s in NH prior to the primary.

    I have a little different take on this being in Iowa. I’m not sure Q&A’s gain you a ton of votes – but refusing to do them loses support.

    In the last week before the Iowa vote, local media – most notably the Des Moines Register – ran front page stories, editorials, letters to the editor, everything but the kitchen sink about how inaccessible the Clinton campaign had become – no Q&A, no press availabilities, etc. On the ground here it really felt like it stuck and did damage; like it undid the Register endorsement which had come fairly early. I was encouraged to see that Team Clinton is capable of learning rather than stubbornly refusing to adapt – in NH they promptly started doing long Q&A. Much better strategy, even if it means you cover less ground in a day.

  • I believe that there are still some deaply racist roots in america that acted upon the
    unexpected first victory of Obama. One reason for the NH surprise that hasn’t been mentioned or tracked was the sudden coverage of Obama’s distant relatives in Kenya. Why hasn’t this happened all that time if it was good news?
    My explanation was that conservative cycles managed to stir the hidden afro fear in the conservative side of democrats and undesided voters by carefully placing this story on the big media….
    I believe that we will see more such stories that subtly hit the hidden racist reflexes, as the race progresses. Still the job is being done very carefully in order not to backsplash in favor of Obama, hence the “african family roots” window-dressing.

  • For the record, this post from Bob Cesca sounds very reasonable:

    Senator Clinton’s Fearmongering Won The Day

    …”Shouting ‘fire!’ in a movie theater” has been an effective Bush administration strategy for many more years than should have been allowed by law. And when the tide was turning against Senator Clinton this week, she inaugurated herself into the elite He-Man Fearmongers Club with what was, for me, one of the most shocking moments on the Democratic side of the campaign. She even nailed the “it’s no accident” Cheney line, i.e. “it’s no accident there hasn’t been another attack.”

    In an MSNBC exit poll, New Hampshire voters were asked the usual terrorism question: “How worried are you that there will be another major terrorist attack in the United States?”

    73 percent responded “very / somewhat worried.”

    If the Clinton campaign didn’t have similar polling information in hand leading up to the senator’s ooga-booga! remarks on Monday, the senator’s campaign strategists weren’t doing their jobs. I would be shocked if the most poll-driven political campaign in the race didn’t have New Hampshire data on terrorism. Nothing is said that isn’t polled for effect. That’s modern politics, especially within the Clinton Loop. Without the proper intel, she never would have stood up at that Dover rally in front of live television cameras and leaned on the jolly, candy-like panic button: a vote for Senator Obama is a vote for another terrorist attack — because the evildoers are watching!

    And we’re somehow expected to believe that Senator Clinton’s almost-crying, voice-crackling soundbyte catapulted her to victory on Tuesday? That’s rich. As much as I’d like to believe that fearmongering doesn’t work anymore, it just isn’t possible that the senator’s “al-Qaeda is watching” toe-monster moment didn’t have a more significant effect on the election results than her misty “this is very personal for me” remarks.

    The too-close-to-call results from Tuesday night indicate that this whole fracas is just about to get uglier (quoting Patton: “God help me I love it so!”). And, like it or not, they’re going to smack us with the Fear Stick while leaning down hard on the panic button all along the way…

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/senator-clintons-fearmon_b_80782.html

  • I guess all the news stories is about how wrong the polls have been in the NH primary but what i ahven’t heard is that these are the same polling results we were hearing on the republican side of the campaign in NH and for some reason the projected winner in the polls John Mccain also was the exit poll winner on Tuesday night. There is nothing wrong with these polls, i think there just seems to be a little bit extra stuff going on and i am not suggesting race..I am just saying how come one side was right and the other so wrong with the same strategic polling? May be the media outlets can add this perspective to the discussions

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