When it’s not race, it’s religion

In the new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll (.pdf), respondents were asked, “Do you know what Barack Obama’s religion is?” About 37% got it right, and said Obama’s a Protestant. The more discouraging news was that 13% said they know Obama’s faith, and identified him as a Muslim. (It was the second most common response to the poll question.) Even more discouraging still, the number of people who believe Obama’s a Muslim is going up — in a WSJ/NBC poll from December, only 8% of Americans made the same mistake.

I still hear this all the time from people, who presumably have received the lying chain email, who are convinced that Obama’s a Muslim — and they couldn’t possibly bring themselves to vote for someone who is. It’s a routine reminder that the Obama campaign has some educating to do.

The frustrating part, of course, is that while conservatives (and even a few liberals) are confused about Obama’s faith tradition, he’s actually getting hit on matters of religion from two directions. When he’s not falsely being accused of being a secret Muslim, Obama is also being accused of cozying up to an extremist Christian pastor.

Sen. Barack Obama’s pastor says blacks should not sing “God Bless America” but “God damn America.”

The Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama’s pastor for the last 20 years at the Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago’s south side, has a long history of what even Obama’s campaign aides concede is “inflammatory rhetoric,” including the assertion that the United States brought on the 9/11 attacks with its own “terrorism.”

In a campaign appearance earlier this month, Sen. Obama said, “I don’t think my church is actually particularly controversial.” He said Rev. Wright “is like an old uncle who says things I don’t always agree with,” telling a Jewish group that everyone has someone like that in their family.

There are plenty of disconcerting remarks included in Wright’s record, but I guess there’s a political upside for Obama: he can’t be a Muslim and a Christian with a radical pastor at the same time.

Not surprisingly, far-right blogs (and a couple of the more intense Democratic Obama detractors) are pretty worked up about Rev. Wright’s rhetoric, which, by any reasonable measure, is mostly on the fringe.

An ABC News review of dozens of Rev. Wright’s sermons, offered for sale by the church, found repeated denunciations of the U.S. based on what he described as his reading of the Gospels and the treatment of black Americans.

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people,” he said in a 2003 sermon. “God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.”

I suppose the reflexive response would be to argue that if John McCain’s embrace of John Hagee and Rod Parsley are offensive, then Obama’s connection to Wright is just as bad.

Perhaps, but there is a key difference — Obama has denounced Wright’s more extreme statements and made clear he “deeply disagrees” with the offensive remarks. McCain prefers to pretend that Hagee’s and Parsley’s extremism is innocuous and barely worth commenting on.

Nevertheless, expect to hear quite a bit more about Jeremiah Wright. It might cause the number of people who believe Obama’s a Muslim to go down, but it may simultaneously drive the number of people who believe Obama’s a Christian black nationalist to go up.

When it’s not race, it’s religion. Ferraro’s out, Wright’s in.

I love you, CB, and I read every word you write, but the two I hate most are “faith tradition.” The very weasel-ness of it really grates on me. Every time I read it I think back to the Heaven’s Gate faith tradition.

Just call it what it is: a preferred flavor of superstition.

  • Hasn’t the lazy MSM played into this? I remember seeing an article in the WaPo about how Obama had to overcome the ‘misperception’ that he was a Muslim, but it was written in such a way that only a pretty dedicated reader would figure out that he was a Christian.

  • First of all I second everything skeptic just said; secondly, even as an Obama supporter, Wright does strike me as a legitimate problem. Obama’s excuse doesn’t sit very well either; you can’t pick your crazy uncles, but you can pick which church you attend (if you must attend one at all).

  • Anyway you want to slice it, Steve, it gives people who don’t like black people a good reason to vote for McCain. I’ve heard it from lifelong dems and it’s driving me crazy. My own Mom has argued for McCain, and she loathes Bush and the Iraq occupation as much as anyone I know. I’m working on her, but I honestly don’t think she’s reachable here. The sheer volume of anti-Obama smears she’s gotten via email is literally mind-boggling and there’s a part of her that wants to believe them, anyway.

  • “There are plenty of disconcerting remarks included in Wright’s record, but I guess there’s a political upside for Obama: he can’t be a Muslim and a Christian with a radical pastor at the same time.”

    Since when has racism had to make sense?

  • Sometimes I think this election cycle is going to go into a continuous meltdown/freakout because of three things:
    1) Everyone is easily associated with someone who has said or done something someone will find offensive.
    2) The internet, the 24/7 news, and the need for a story ensure that there’s always some new Big Story – or one will be made.
    3) The news media has no idea how to report, so they’re always playing catchup, defensive, or deferential to various other groups – bloggers, media figures, etc.

    In the end it’s one giant freakout after another- with very little to do with actual, solid issues.

    This is why I’ve turned off the major news media. There’s rarely a damn thing relevant to my life and real-world issues.

  • ANOTHER INTERESTING ANALYSIS: Reading (and blogging) here on this website helps me to better understand our politics…So thank you for all the high-quality product.

  • As 3 and 6 (in their own very different way) point out, there will be some serious tin-foil hatties who suspect Wright is merely claiming to be Christian but his tone shows that even our beloved houses of Christian worship have been infiltrated by America-hating Farakkan following Islamofascists.

    Whether we supported, and whether we nominate, Obama or Clinton, everyone needs to appreciate the need to work twice (or more) as hard in the fall as they have in the past. There is a price for making history. When we talk to each other here we can easily forgot that there is a whole different America out there, where women lead anti-women groups, and life-long Democrats still use the “N-word.”

    This will not be the least bit easy. That “generic” polls showing Americans by 57-40 prefer that a Democratic president gets elected, but show that Obama or Clinton only leads McCain by 3 or 2 respectively? Consider that 10-11% that changes the “Racism/Sexism” gap – and it is probably bigger, because some of the Obama/Clinton support comes from agists who would otherwise support McCain!

  • This is what happens when religion becomes such a central concern in a campaign. This kind of stuff is going to follow you around forever. Is this what we are left with?

    Let’s see, who is Hillary’s “religious advisor” – surely someone out there knows. Let’s stir things up a little more….

    I only hate knowing that Barack considers Wright a “religious advisor”. Does it bother anyone else?

  • Personally, I think Wright is more of a problem to Obama than Hagee is to McCain. Unless Hagee introduced himself to McCain as “I am John Hagee and I hate Catholics, Muslims and gays”, McCain is unlikely to know about his past statements. Was Obama there in church when Wright gave his “God damn America” sermon? What did Obama do? Did he give money in the offering plate and say, “See you next week”? Attending a church is an implied endorsement of a pastor’s views, particularly when a pastor is a long-serving one. Trinity UCC in Chicago is really Wright’s church, as he took it from 87 members in 1972 to over 6,000. If Obama disagreed with Wright’s views, he could easily have found another church to attend.

  • Let’s see, who is Hillary’s “religious advisor”

    No, but she’s a Methodist, so trust me it’ll be boring 🙂

  • (I should add that I was raised Methodist, so I can say that kind of thing 🙂 )

  • They also wrote another interesting story today discussing how the race card was played against Clinton by Obama’s followers, and how her words were skewed and taken out of context ragarding her answer about whether she thought he was a muslim.

    Hillary Clinton’s incontestably accurate comment — that it had taken the action of a president, Lyndon Johnson, to pass the Civil Rights Act, and thus bring to fruition the goal to which Dr. King had devoted his life — ignited storms of outrage, furious commentaries on how Sen. Clinton had played a sly race card, diminishing Dr. King’s importance in comparison to that of the white president.

    In all, the pattern of these charges may well suggest a race card in play, only it wasn’t the Clintons who were playing it.

    The latest charge arose from a “60 Minutes” interview a week ago, in which Mrs. Clinton was supposedly contriving a way to suggest that Mr. Obama is in fact a secret Muslim. In the stories carried elsewhere in the media, the case against her rests on five words.

    The entire “60 Minutes” exchange — showing her effort to answer interrogator Steve Kroft’s persistent questions — would have been more instructive. Because, as in so many interrogations, an emphatic no — when the investigator is looking for another answer — is never enough.

    Mr. Kroft: “You don’t believe that Sen. Obama is a Muslim?”

    Mrs. Clinton: “Of course not. I mean, you know, there is no basis for that. I take him on the basis of what he says. You know, there isn’t any reason to doubt that.”

    Kroft: “You said you take Sen. Obama at his word that he’s not. . . . You don’t believe that he’s. . . .”

    Clinton: “No, no. There’s nothing to base that on, as far as I know.”

    Kroft: “It’s just scurrilous . . .?”

    Clinton: “Look, I have been the target of so many ridiculous rumors that I have a great deal of sympathy for anybody who gets, you know, smeared with the kind of rumors that go on all the time.”

    The now famous five words, “as far as I know” come trailing a sentence showing an interviewee clearly trying to fill space — babbling, as we all do, when there’s nothing more to say and the persistent interrogator requires, nevertheless, more talk. Clearly, that “as far as I know” is chatter, without import, in the midst of emphatic declarations rejecting the notion that Mr. Obama is Muslim.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/obama_on_offense.html

  • Dillon: “you can pick which church you attend”

    Not really true for everyone. Catholics (~25% of Americans, IIRC), for example, are required by church law (which is enforced to varying degrees) to attend and be members of the church for the parish in which they live. The pastor of the church must approve various activities (say marriage or baptism), even if the actual presiding priest of the ceremony is at a different church/parish. They can and will deny you permission or sacraments if, again as examples, you haven’t been attending your church regularly, or tithing appropriately.

  • What if the crazy pastor was a secret Black Muslim? Huh? Huh?

    Yeah, what better way to hurt Christianity than to pretend to be one and act like a loony. I guess all the loony Christians might be secret muslims!

    Seriously, I think that the number of people who will fall for this muslim (or wacko fundie) crap, after hearing Obama speak, is going to be very minor, and that those people would probably not be voting for him even if they thought he was a mainstream Christian. The backlash against this racist stupidity could even outweigh the damage it does to him.

  • MLE,

    First of all your point is irrelevant to Obama, since he is not a Catholic, and in any event Catholics can choose to follow church law or not– there is nothing compelling them to do so. They therefore remain morally associated with statements made by their local parish priest to the same extent that Obama is associated with Wright– i.e., if someone’s priest has a history of making outrageous comments, it is no excuse to say, “The church told me I have to attend this parish.”

  • More to the point, people can choose to BE Catholic, or not to be Catholic– and therefore whether to align themselves with the set of values and beliefs espoused by the Catholic Church. The same goes, of course, for every other religious organization.

  • It seems to me that changing pastors for political reasons is a really low move. Obamas approach is exactly correct IMO.

  • MLE, I didn’t know that about Catholics, but I don’t think it’s comparable. The views of the Catholic church are set by the Pope and then filter down. If a congregation had a radical Catholic priest as their pastor, I don’t think it would reflect on a member of that congregation as that priest will be gone someday, but the Catholic church’s views will continue on.

    Wright OTOH built that congregation from 87 members to 6,000 over 26 years. The people that attend there were drawn by his teachings, not the teachings of the United Church of Christ.

  • Dennis, I can’t believe you’re going to give McCain a pass on Hagee based on “McCain is unlikely to know about his past statements.” For one, Hagee has been controversial for some time, his statements are a lot more public than Wright’s sermons. Two, he actively sought Hagee’s public and political endorsement (which, it seems safe to conclude, reaches more people than Wright’s pulpit). Three, he hasn’t really done much to distance himself from the more extreme views (in fact, he tried to defend him as being taken out of context).

    I find it reasonable to make a comparison between the two, but I disagree with your assessment of McCain’s knowledge of Hagee’s problematic statements.

  • I guess there’s a political upside for Obama: he can’t be a Muslim and a Christian with a radical pastor at the same time.

    Wow, you really underestimate the cognitive dissonance of the wingnutosphere.

  • Actually, I think it’s entirely possible for voters to suspect Obama of being both a Muslim and bad Christian. It’s a paradox but a paradox that people are entirely comfortable with. People don’t think logically about this stuff; both of those descriptions dovetail into distrust with The Other. I think education will go far, but not in endlessly denouncing these claims. What he has to do is reduce that false identity as The Other by emphasizing what he holds in common with people. It’s also what he does best.

    There’s a third line of attack in this regard, however, and it’s come from Clinton: secular humanism vs. organized religion. Her King/LBJ dichotomy can also be seen in light of that attack. As well as her insistence that he denounce Farrakhan and her disparaging the revival tent aspects of his campaigning. Of course, she’s got her own revival tent on the other side of town, but it adheres to certain assurances that she’s passing these topics through the secular sieve of government bureaucracy.

    Considering Obama is a constitutional scholar and no religious zealot, I find it horrific that Clinton is pitting secular humanism (or science or rationality or whatever you want to call it) versus religious inclinations. I mean, that doesn’t exactly help you in the fall, anyway. And it further smothers the ridiculously low level of rhetoric when it comes to religious matters in this country.

  • There are plenty of disconcerting remarks included in Wright’s record, but I guess there’s a political upside for Obama: he can’t be a Muslim and a Christian with a radical pastor at the same time.

    I suppose the reflexive response would be to argue that if John McCain’s embrace of John Hagee and Rod Parsley are offensive, then Obama’s connection to Wright is just as bad.

    dnA (#6) has it right, “Since when has racism had to make sense?” Wright is a racist. He implies blame on “rich, white, people” for Obama having been raised in a single-parent household. Anybody who has read about Barack Obama knows this isn’t close to being the truth (unless “rich, white, people” forced Obama, Sr. to separate from his wife, dragged Obama, Sr. to Harvard to get a degree, and required Obama, Sr. to divorce his wife, Obama, Jr’s mother; it’s a bit of a stretch don’t ya think?).

    Add in that Wright married Sen. Obama and his wife, baptized his kids, and Obama credited the title of his book “The Audacity of Hope” to Wright. And Obama has been listening to the racist preaching of Wright for twenty years. How can Obama claim he “denounced” Wright’s “extremist” (racist) views when he still goes to that church?

    There is a difference between Wright and Hagee and Parsley. Along with Farrakhan, Obama’s spiritual supporters are both racists.

    When it’s not race, it’s religion. Ferraro’s out, Wright’s in. It’s still about race; just that now the racism of what constitutes Obama’s faith has been added into the mix.

    If you don’t believe me, just get it from the horse’s mouth (via Ben Smith at the Politico).

  • short fuse, I had not heard of John Hagee before so I had no idea about his views. Now, Hagee may be quite controversial in some circles, but it’s not clear to me that McCain and his staff travel in those circles. I am sure a Google search could have found examples of his controversial statements. Did McCain’s team do that level of vetting? It’s not clear. Until there is some evidence that McCain knew about the controversial comments before he seeked out Hagee, I will give McCain the benefit of the doubt.

  • I guess I’m one of those on the fringe that are pretty worked up. Telling your congregation that Bill Clinton rode black people like he rode Monica Lewinsky while they all shout amen is extremely unsettling.

  • It fascinates me that in a country where avowed racists can hold offices for aeons and have the power to direct the course of American lives through national and local laws, the majority population flips out over people like Pastor Wright, Al Sharpton, and Louis Farrakhan.

    If you are going to stand on the unwieldy and crumbling moral precipice of so called “reverse racism” then you should be darn sure that you’ve always called out racists and racism where ever you find it.

    The people who offend me and “hurt my feelings” to loosely quote Geraldine Ferraro, are the ones who make make laws and/or influence public policy even though they are two steps from the Grand Wizard himself. Pat Buchanan, James Byrd, Trent Lott, Jesse Helms, and Google knows there are scores more from whence that list off the top of my head comes.

    Wrong is wrong, but I don’t see people nor have I ever seen people in the “mainstream” get as amped up about people like that who actually hold REAL POWER. To most people Pat Buchanan is benign because, oh he’s just so extreme how can you take him seriously.

    Many people argue that Farrakhan is extreme in the same, but the last time I checked he never advised any presidents nor does he have a weekly forum on a major cable news outlet to spout his poison.

    So pardon me if I don’t jump all over Obama to reject and denounce his RETIRED pastor in an age when most, if not all churches are segregated by “race,” the Klan still burns crosses in God’s name, and the majority of the country is ok with racial facists holding office, running for office and other was controlling the landscape and face of American politics.

  • “The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people,” he said in a 2003 sermon. “God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.”

    Frankly, this statement is an inditement of the Government of America, the same government that has enslaved people, created Jim Crow laws, forced people into ghettoes, filled neighborhoods with liquor stores, made crack available to the neighborhood, criminalized crack in far excess of its companion drug cocaine, and continues neglect and to treat certain people as subhuman. The speech could have been made by any person of color, and is not unreasonable. And the reference to killing innocent people could have been made by anyone who opposes the war in Iraq.

  • MNC, the only member of the government that is associated with a “Grand Wizard” is former KKK member Sen. Robert Byrd (D-WV). I don’t know (or care) who James Byrd is, but neither Buchanan, Lott, or Helms had anything to do with the KKK (and Byrd is still in office). Plus, Obama’s pastor only retired last month. Probably because the IRS is hot on his trail to find out if he was violating the church’s non-profit tax status (and Wright’s) by engaging in political campaigning from the pulpit.

  • SteveL, Lott and Helms dealt with White Citizens Councils instead. No real difference.

  • JustMe @ 28:

    “Telling your congregation that Bill Clinton rode black people like he rode Monica Lewinsky while they all shout amen is extremely unsettling.”

    First I had heard of this one. I think it is extremely funny!

  • MNC – I agree with you, wrong is wrong. I do get amped up about the hate-mongers you mentioned but what can I do? I scream at the TV and radio. I voice my opinion against this type of rhetoric. I vote.

    Was it naive of me to believe that for once in my 52 years, I was actually going to vote FOR someone (Obama) with enthusiasm instead of AGAINST someone else? I’m very upset. I thought it not out of the ordinary for John McCain to garner support from the likes of Hagee, Parsley, etc. Maybe I held a higher regard for Barack Obama…oh well, that’s politics as usual….

  • Dillon/Dennis: I use Catholics as merely an example, and although I am now a rabid atheist, once once pretty familiar with them. In any event, the principle I was pointing to was that the choice of which church to attend is not necessarily within one’s exclusive control, as a practical matter. For Catholics, its pretty rigid canonical law, for Obama it may be simply there are no other UCC churches nearby, or that he attends for historical/sentimental reasons. Certainly, by his mere attendance you cannot say he was drawn by the pastor’s teachings or agreement with them.

    And let’s leave aside the argument that one can choose their religion, to paraphrase T. Jefferson, its really no one else’s business what your private beliefs are, or how they got there. By extension, its no one’s business what church one attends.

    Personally, until I see evidence Obama’s own private beliefs are problematic, I am a lot less concerned about Obama being a member of the UCC than say, a baptist church.

  • Steve IL,
    White Citizens Council, Dixiecrats, whatever “club” the Klan calls and has called itself over time, they are all avowed white supremacists who don’t want to send people like me Christmas cards or light the menorah with my some of my friends.

    By your quick defense in the form of proving my arguement all wrong by splitting a hair with the same dna no matter how you slice it, I can only assume that it’s ok with for white supremacists who may or may not have formal affiliations with cross burning hood wearers, to hold major office and run the affairs of this government.

    No one is hunting down Hagee’s church for the same alleged violation that you accuse Wright.

    Funny how that works. Funny how one hate monger can stay in the national spotlight, be glossed over as “not really that bad” while another is in hairshirt being audited.

    So however you want to slice it SteveIL all those people like Buchanan and Helms wield power Wright never have and never will. It is on the record that they hate black people and have supported laws and legislation to discriminate against us and keep us in our place.

    Heck, if those guys aren’t “klanny” enough for your let’s talk about Bill Clinton’s mentor Fulbright.

  • Sorry for the typos folks-this topic exhausts me because no matter what, Obama is going to have to be “Super-bama” both by his own hand and in the eyes of others to get ahead in this race.

    Ask any black professional or black person just trying to get the job done, if you’re not better than the rest, then not only do you confirm the basest beliefs of all the bigots, but you also give the “moderate” and “liberal” bigots the power to close the door behind you.

    That’s the “luck” of being black in America. One of you screws up and that means all of you screw up.

  • MLE, it’s not the case that Obama was raised UCC and chose the closest UCC to go to. He was raised primarily by his mother, who eschewed organized religion. Many Protestants switch denominations when they can’t find a church of their current denomination that is close and that they are comfortable with. I don’t know when Obama started attending a Christian church, but I think a reasonable guess as for why he chose to attend Trinity UCC is that he felt at home there. That he felt at home with a preacher who preached the messages that Wright preached is not in my eyes a good sign.

  • MNC (#36): No one is hunting down Hagee’s church for the same alleged violation that you accuse Wright.

    Really? I didn’t know being a Catholic was to be part of a different race. I also didn’t know being a Muslim was to be part of a different race. You know why I didn’t know that? Because it isn’t true. Wright on the other hand rails against white people; you know, racism. There’s a difference. A huge difference.

    And don’t even think Hagee is an anti-Semite. I read Matthew Yglesias false attempt to do so. You know where Hagee came by his what you would call “anti-Semitic” views? How about the Old Testament of the Bible (Hagee is a pastor; I’m sure he knows the Bible pretty well)? The Old Testament spends a whole lotta time chastising Jews for turning away from God. Who wrote it? Jews, in Hebrew. Now, you’re not going to now try to convince me that the guys who wrote the Old Testament, Jews, were anti-Semitic, are you? That would be silly. And utterly ridiculous. Which then makes Hagee’s beliefs not in any anti-Semitic or racist.

  • Maybe the concerned dems in this thread could give us a list of “acceptable” churches for Obama to consider switching to?

    Then later you can interview the ministers to see if they meet with your approval.

  • Mark Gisleson

    Since you are an Obama supporter I suggest you read his book “Dreams of my Father” and “Audacity of Hope” and you will see that Obama himself credits Wright as his spiritual advisor and mentor and indeed states that the phrase “Audacity of Hope” comes from one of his sermons. That more than his attendence at the church is what makes it worrisome since really he should have known by 2006 that Wright had some pretty out there beliefs.

  • I’ve studied under Communists but that didn’t make me a Communist. I’ve read Mein Kampf but I’m not a Nazi.

    I am happy we have a frontrunner who likes being challenged on Sunday mornings by a provocative minister. It is a mark of great intellect and strength to open yourself up to people who hold some views you do not share.

    This is all guilt by association. What would be damning is if Obama espoused any of these so-called radical views. (Views, btw, that are very common in any college history department.)

    But now that I see how this is played, let’s check out EVERY college professor HRC had, and check the records of EVERY commanding officer McCain served under. Then we can interview all their friends, their neighbors, and their neighbors friends. And let’s waterboard their ministers while we’re at it.

    Isn’t that how guilt by association works?

  • Good strawman argument there. But again you are missing -or really trying to obscure – a simple point. Obama’s own words in his books state that Rev. Wright was and still is one of the most important influences in his life. The book he runs on as the explanation of who he is.
    That is why that influence is worthy of examination. None of your examples fit that criteria at all.

    But yes if you tell me that Hitler is your spiritual advisor and mentor- it would raise the question in my mind (and most people’s) whether you were a nazi.

    You might be able to show you are not- but people would be justified in raising the question so your outrage is misplaced.

  • This issue isn’t going to go away. Obama can distance himself from specific remarks, say he doesn’t agree with everything Wright says, but this isn’t really about that. Limbaugh and friends are going after this because they want to believe and convince others that this exposes Obama’s secret feelings– just today Rush himself said that Wright’s views explain why Michelle Obama hates America.

    So, yes, one of their predictable tactics is that the Obamas secretly hate America and have radical black-panther-type of views. It goes hand-in-hand with the secret Muslim thing too. All they have to do is just make people doubt that Obama is who he says he is, that he’s covering up some secret America-hating Agenda and you have yourself a weakened candidate, especially when up against an American War Hero like McCain.

    Obama has to show he can stand up against this or the crap the Clintons are tossing around these days is going to look like child’s play.

  • The fact that none of Wright’s “negativity” has shown through in Obama’s rhetoric amply demonstrates that Obama is his own man.

    But the challenge here isn’t Wright, it’s the fact that very few white Americans truly understand bupkus about black America. The fact that I’m comfortable with Rev. Wright doesn’t mean much. If he genuinely offends some of the folks here to the point where they cannot support Obama, so be it. That’s not a commentary on Obama, that’s a commentary on those who don’t like to hear anything contrary to their own beliefs. But if Wright’s words are shocking to some, they are only shocking if you know next to nothing about black ministers and their gospel.

    Btw, I’ve been tracking Hagee for years now and he’s a real work of art. Not anti-Semite? Whoever said that knows nothing about end times preachers. Hagee supports Israel because Israel is essential to bringing on Armageddon. Israel tolerates Hagee because he puts money into Israel, but they watch him carefully as he is a very bigoted Christian with extreme beliefs. The man’s large base of support is literally built upon the belief that he and his followers can help hasten the end of the world.

    Uh, sorry. I forgot we were talking about black ministers saying mean things about white people and how that’s affected Obama. And it has! Seriously, every time I hear him speak I’m amazed at how much “I hate Whitey” he can pack into a speech.

    It’s truly amazing.

  • I have no doubt that Obama doesn’t parrot all of Wright’s beliefs. But I do question his judgment for picking him as a mentor and spiritual advisor.

    And Mark I have attended black churches. Neither all or most black preachers share Wright’s beliefs or rhetoric and your attempt to apologize for him based on your so much better understanding as a norwegian of black america is really an insult to those blacks.

    It also insults those of us who have no problem with alternative beliefs but have a problem with all religious people who try to pervert Jesus’ message with their abhorrent personal politics be it Hagee or Wright.

    The two are equally wrongheaded. And both McCain and Obama should reconsider their associations.

  • Dennis@27. I appreciate your clarification. I disagree with your conclusion– McCain actively sought Hagee’s political endorsement, so I think that he *should* be familiar with his views. I’ll grant that it’s *possible* that he didn’t… though if that were the case, it seems he would have backed away from Hagee’s more inflammatory views more forcefully. He didn’t. But I’ll grant that it doesn’t mean that McCain subscribes to those views himself.

    But where this is almost certainly headed is that the MSM will decide it’s no big deal that McCain trucks with a preacher with a huge audience that says hateful things, while it’s a horrendous, awful, disqualifying thing that Obama trucks with a preacher with a small audience that says hateful things. As ever, IOKIYAR.

  • I can’t believe some of the stuff I’m reading here. I’m recovering from knee surgery and can’t post on the laptop I’m reading in bed, so I hope people are still reading this thread since I’m typing standing up (very uncomfortable). Please excuse any typos.

    First off, unless any of us have grown up black in America, we have no business judging those who have.

    All of this stuff about Wright has been debunked on the Annenburg site (factcheck.org), from which the following is taken:

    Here is what is being debunked:

    False E-Mail Sent to FactCheck.org Readers

    Received Dec. 31, 2007

    Subject: Obama’s church

    Obama mentioned his church during his appearance with Oprah. It’s the Trinity Church of Christ. I found this interesting.

    Obama’s church:
    Please read and go to this church’s web site and read what is written there. It is very alarming.

    Barack Obama is a member of this church and is running for President of the U.S. If you look at the first page of their web site, you will learn that this congregation has a non-negotiable commitment to Africa. No where is AMERICA even mentioned. Notice too, what color you will need to be if you should want to join Obama’s church…_ B-L-A-C-K!!!_ Doesn’t look like his choice of religion has improved much over his (former?) Muslim upbringing. Are you aware that Obama’s middle name is Mohammed? Strip away his nice looks, the big smile and smooth talk and what do you get? Certainly a racist, as plainly defined by the stated position of his church! And possibly a covert worshiper of the Muslim faith, even today. This guy desires to rule over America while his loyalty is totally vested in a Black Africa!

    I cannot believe this has not been all over the TV and newspapers. This is why it is so important to pass this message along to all of our family & friends. To think that Obama has even the slightest chance in the run for the presidency, is really scary.
    Click on the link below:
    This is the web page for the church Barack Obama belongs to: http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

    Here is Annenburg’s response:
    The first clue that this e-mail is the product of careless ignorance is that it claims that “Obama’s middle name is Mohammed,” which is false. His middle name is Hussein.

    As for the accusations against his church, this e-mail is not the first place they have come up. Nearly a year ago conservative blogger Erik Rush called the church “cultish” and “separatist” in a Feb. 2007 interview on Fox News’ “Hannity and Colmes” and questioned whether its parishioners could consider themselves Americans or Christians.

    Here are the facts:

    It is true that Trinity describes itself as “a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian” and which “does not apologize for its African roots.” The church’s Web site specifies a commitment to Africa and to “historical education of African people in diaspora.” The congregation is overwhelmingly black; few if any whites can be seen in the photographs and videos of the congregation posted on the church’s Web site. But none of that makes the church “racist” or anti-American.

    And in fact, a professor of theology at the University of Chicago Divinity School, Martin E. Marty, wrote this in April 2007, rebutting Rush’s claims on Fox News:

    Prof. Marty: To those in range of Chicago TV I’d recommend a watching of Trinity’s Sunday services, and challenge you to find anything “cultic” or “sectarian” about them. More important, for Trinity, being “unashamedly black” does not mean being “anti-white.” My wife and I on occasion attend, and, like all other non-blacks, are enthusiastically welcomed.
    Regarding this renewed attack on Trinity, Prof. Marty told FactCheck, “That kind of e-mail is vicious and lying, and makes my blood boil. … Many civic officials, public school teachers, etc. are members at Trinity; [Rev. Jeremiah] Wright has been on TV with his services for years, and no one found them racist – it’s smear politics.”

    Trinity would not comment to us for this article. Rev. Wright, however, appeared on Fox’s “Hannity and Colmes” on March 2, 2007, and responded at length to the claim made by Rush. He said in part:

    Alan Colmes: I want the public to understand where your church is coming from, because you’re being accused of being a black separatist church, and thus Obama is being accused by default of being a black separatist. Can you straighten that out for us, please?

    Wright: OK. The African-centered point of view does not assume superiority, nor does it assume separatism. It assumes Africans speaking for themselves as subjects in history, not objects in history.

    There’s no question that Wright has been a controversial figure, a passionate advocate for black self-help and to some, a radical. Jason Byassee, in a lengthy article on the church published in Christian Century magazine, said, “There is no denying … that a strand of radical black political theology influences Trinity.” He added, “Conservatives may find the Africentric church too political, and liberals may squirm over its revivalist emotion.” But he praised the church’s success in growing to more than 8,000 members, making this black congregation the largest single church in a predominately white United Church of Christ denomination, saying “the black church continues to makes converts in unlikely places, reflecting a God who makes a way where there is no way.”

    Wherever we looked we found ample evidence that Obama’s church is pro-black, but we found none to support a claim that it is anti-white. Calling it “racist” is, in our judgment, a falsehood.

    ~~~
    BTW, Prof. Marty is a highly regarded theologian and author. I think I would take his word over the rantings and inuendo of a few hotheads, TV personalities, etc.

    OK, that’s all.

  • So what’s wrong with Wright complaining about America again? Is America a paradise and kind and benevolent force now? Are Democrats turning into Rethuglicans all of a sudden? I guess white racist tribalism trumps political parties.

  • SteveIL(#39): Really? I didn’t know being a Catholic was to be part of a different race. I also didn’t know being a Muslim was to be part of a different race. You know why I didn’t know that? Because it isn’t true. Wright on the other hand rails against white people; you know, racism. There’s a difference. A huge difference.

    And don’t even think Hagee is an anti-Semite. I read Matthew Yglesias false attempt to do so. You know where Hagee came by his what you would call “anti-Semitic” views? How about the Old Testament of the Bible (Hagee is a pastor; I’m sure he knows the Bible pretty well)? The Old Testament spends a whole lotta time chastising Jews for turning away from God. Who wrote it? Jews, in Hebrew. Now, you’re not going to now try to convince me that the guys who wrote the Old Testament, Jews, were anti-Semitic, are you? That would be silly. And utterly ridiculous. Which then makes Hagee’s beliefs not in any anti-Semitic or racist.

    SteveIL,
    First, when I said : “No one is hunting down Hagee’s church for the same alleged violation that you accuse Wright.” I specifically meant no one is hunting down Hagee’s church for tax violations and they never will even though he nakedly uses his “pulpit” to further his political agenda as a Christian Zionist.

    Second, Hagee may not hate Jews, but he hates everyone else, but I’m sure that’s A-ok in your book.

    Third, no Catholics were never considered a second race, but the Irish and the Italians were not considered white, which if you check any primary US history source meant, if you weren’t white, you were of some other lesser race.

    In fact, in this crazy, kooky, loveable U.S. of A. for a hot minute in time, Irish were considered to be LOWER than blacks. Imagine that.

    Fourth, if Wright is “racist” against white people, so what? What can he do about it? He’s not in charge and people that look like him are about 12% of the population and they don’t run s***. Last time I looked up, every president of the country has been white and everyone under the president has been majority white.

    So even if, Obama gets in the “big house” all those white folks who’ve been running the show for more than 200 years aren’t gonna let the slaves revolt. Trust me on this SteveIL. White people will always run the show just by sheer mathematics. (Although, “latinos” or “hispanics” or whatever census designated name has been given are gaining on you SteveIL-look out for the brown hordes dude! )

    Finally, here’s some commie, leftist clap trap you may want to read to develop your incomplete “arguements:” (You also may want to read the primary sources of some of our founding fathers and even our politicians today in case you need “real history”)

    Sarah Posner:God’s Profits: Faith, Fraud, and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters.

    Noel Ignatiev:How the Irish Became White

    Karen Brodkin : How Jews Became White Folks and What That Says About Race in America

    David M. Chalmers: Hooded Americanism: The History of the Ku Klux Klan

  • “God bless America? No, God damn America. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Americans are murderers. 9/11 was just chickens…coming home….to roost”

    Why did Obama allow his children to be instilled with this evil every Sunday?

  • I specifically meant no one is hunting down Hagee’s church for tax violations and they never will even though he nakedly uses his “pulpit” to further his political agenda as a Christian Zionist. Being a Christian Zionist is a political agenda? Puh-leeze. As far as I know (and I’m not a member of his church or watch him, or any other pastor, on TV), he isn’t actively campaigning for John McCain while engaged in his role as a church pastor. That is exactly what Wright is doing, and it is possibly a violation of tax law.

    Second, Hagee may not hate Jews, but he hates everyone else, but I’m sure that’s A-ok in your book. Whatever.

    Third, no Catholics were never considered a second race, but the Irish and the Italians were not considered white, which if you check any primary US history source meant, if you weren’t white, you were of some other lesser race. The comparison is between spiritual supporters of McCain and Obama, and how that relates to their campaigns, and that their hatreds are equal. They’re not for the reasons I stated above. What happened with the Irish and Italians in the past isn’t relevant here.

    Fourth, if Wright is “racist” against white people, so what? What can he do about it? He’s not in charge and people that look like him are about 12% of the population and they don’t run s***. Last time I looked up, every president of the country has been white and everyone under the president has been majority white. I was going to say something, but I get your point with the next paragraph.

    So even if, Obama gets in the “big house” all those white folks who’ve been running the show for more than 200 years aren’t gonna let the slaves revolt. Trust me on this SteveIL. White people will always run the show just by sheer mathematics. (Although, “latinos” or “hispanics” or whatever census designated name has been given are gaining on you SteveIL-look out for the brown hordes dude! ) And here’s the rub; you’re right about Wright not really mattering, up to a point, in all this. But it does have everything to do with the choices Obama has made in his life; the value of family (in this, by the way, I think he is top-notch), how he attains his goals, who has influenced him to guide his decision-making, those who he interacts with as friends, those who he interacts with in business. It is about Obama. I’ve seen how he attains office; he’s as dirty as any Chicago politician. His spiritual values come from an avowed racist. His big-government nanny-state politics consist of nothing more than the same failures that have harmed America for over 70 years (it’s the same with Clinton), and have wrecked every country that has gone the leftist route. And his business contacts have been less than stellar, such as Tony Rezko and the entire Chicago Democrat machine.

    It isn’t that Obama is black one bit. But it is in his values, and how he wants to use those values as President. And part of those are represented by whom Obama calls a spiritual adviser, a mentor, someone who does nothing but lambast white people. I, and millions of others, have a big problem with that.

  • Roy Mustang, his kids probably went to children’s church. But by the way, why do you think America was attacked on 9/11? The reasoning behind Osama bin Laden’s decision, could it have to do with America’s position on Palestinians and Isrealis? Perhaps. Murderers, America? Half a million Arab children were killed during the Clinton Administration. -http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/13/7655/. Put the man’s words in context. He was talking about the government and its actions.

  • Not that it justifies 9/11 under ANY circumstances. Two wrongs still don’t make right.

  • Aside from the icky Farrakhan connection–which has already been “denounced” ad nauseam–can’t help but wish I had a nearby church with a pastor like Wright. At times he may enjoy a bit of self-indulgent, Olbermann-esque rhetoric, but frankly it’s hard to see anything “frightening” in most of the quotes being bandied about. 

    In fact, wow–here is yet another case in which Barack Obama gets to do stuff that I envy. His church and pastor truly, ardently care about what our country does. Wright is not afraid to make us look at the consequences of our actions–and inaction–and he refuses to remain silent concerning the way we treat our fellow human beings here and overseas (bet you a dollar he’s not confused about what constitutes torture–or that he’d hesitate to point out the implications for every one of us who tolerates such “policy”).

    In classic American tradition he speaks from a pulpit, but this man seems to have the passion of the rare, genuine, non-scoundrelly patriot–the kind who is sick at heart by what he has seen, & wants the US to be on the side of the angels. Oooh. That is scary! Obama is inspired by such stuff? Humanity? Consequences? Taking a hard, critical look at ourselves & not putting the blame all on the “other guy?” A dangerous, radical nut-case indeed.

  • This is nonsense! Is someone determined to divide the party? It has been mentioned that Jim Crow is back and I believe it! If one person makes a negative comment about race then someone else will respond and it only leads to anger on both sides as well as nasty blogs. Let’s all focus on electing a democrat… We all know that America has a history of racial issues…We all know that as a part of America’s history we have had “those who were privileged” and “those who were not privileged”…History can not be changed and experiences can not be changed. This election has been a rollercoaster. If it is not a comment with racial overtones, then it is a picture or a photo presented to stir up voters. Bill & Hillary..PLEASE STOP before the party futher divides.

  • This is what it looks like to someone on the right. Damn libruls makin fun of Mitt Romney for his religion. Damn libruls making fun of fundamentalists. Damn libruls excusing Obama for listening to God Damn America! sermons for twenty years.

    Damn librul hipcrites.

  • Well… the thing is, he went to that church for 20 years and was married by that pastor and had his children baptized by that pastor. It really does put a doubt in my mind about Obama’s judgment. Just sayin’.

  • This is going to be used by the Right– Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck both have been talking about this for DAYS now– to divide and conquer the Democratic Party. Rush calls what he is doing “Operation Chaos” and it is his clear desire to do exactly what we are doing right now, for us to attack each other and question Obama’s authenticity.

    Do taking a few selective quotes from a passionate black minister speaking from his pulpit mean we get to condemn him? And by extension do we condemn Obama? No.

    Wright is being used by the Right to instruct fearful white Americans that Obama is a SCARY BLACK MAN and that they are justified in distrusting him, even hating him. Then they have the nerve to simultaneously say that Democrats and Liberals are the real RACISTS who play the “race card.”

    This is their usual fear game, folks, and we have to be able to see this for what it really is– they’re trying to get people to FEAR OBAMA and to paint both Obamas as AMERICA-HATERS based on a few selected controversial quotes by SOMEONE ELSE. Yes, Rush has said repeatedly that both Barack and Michelle “hate America” and that Wright proves this. It proves nothing of the sort.

  • I am from Mississippi. I feel strongly that Obama does not support his Pastor’s negative words as published here. Many educated people have found themselves entrapped in many of Black Ministers churches/sermons like this. the churches usually are very good in many areas but shy from this kind of negative words. What such people (members) like me usually do is to stay there and help influence the Pastor to consider some of his ways and learn the language of love not language of division or intense dislike. Haven studied Obama so far, he is not the type that runs away from pastors like Rev. Wrighte. He is the kind that sticks around and actually tries to influence the Pastor. I am a highly educated man, and I strongly dislike black Ministers preaching against white or America this way, and I am an ardent lover ans supporter of America, and I am black. I have also stuck around in the church and tried to bring sense to such Ministers. A strong, self-willed member like me or Obama can make a difference in a church where the Pastor is like Wrighte’s. Running away does not help; it only leaves the Pastor to say whatever he wants without opposition. Obama does not share this Pastor’s views (as declared here).

  • The Minister’s statements are American-bashing. I don’t like it, and I know Obama hates it. Obama has done what any noble man can do –“Denounce the Pastor’s statements.” Now it is important to note that the Pastor does not dislike America. It is really his love for America that causes him to say these things. There are some white people, serious Ministers of the gospel, who may have actually compared America to some of the worst things that ever happened in history, including Hitler. They love America, but their obligation cause them to say things they felt God is leading them to say. These people can give their lives for America. At the same time, they will speak out what they feel as being the truth. Let no one hold Obama responsible for even being in Pastor Wright’s church. He can be there but NOT support all the Pastor says, for the Pastor may be excellent in other areas.

    America really needs to be careful at this time otherwise they will miss a good thing that God is showcasing for them through Obama. i think he will be one of the best Presidents USA will ever have. Why? I really believe that God will work him and unleash His blessings to America again.

  • Is there anyone else out there who finds this whole discussion kind of petty?

    I, for one, make a point of keeping a lot of friends who I disagree with. I grew up in Texas and a lot of my best friends are hard-core right-wingers who believe a lot of things I find absolutely deplorable — but what am I supposed to do? Judge them? Cut them off?

    If I did that, not only would I lose perfectly good friends, but that would end any discussion I had with them about politics, and both they and I would retreat into our separate divisions of the political discussion. (Which, tangentially, is exactly the problem with America right now, if you ask me — nobody’s talking to people they disagree with.)

    And while we’re talking about religion, wasn’t it Jesus himself who championed the cause of “mixing it up” by advocating hanging out with sinners and tax collectors and loving your enemies?

    Maybe I’m biased because I think he’s the best candidate, but Obama strikes me as the kind of guy who would do the same.

  • I may be wrong with this correlation, but should I, as a Catholic be blamed for what priests have done? Should followers of Jim and Tammy Bakker or Jim Swaggart for what they did? I’m lost.

  • I don’t believe Senator Obama is necessarily racist, or that he believes what his Pastor believes, but I am concerned that his WIFE appears to be racist and an America-hater. The part of Senator Obama that I cannot believe in is his policies. His desire to get us more deeply involved with the UN, physically and monitarily. I believe the UN should move out of the USA. I don’t like the fact that Senator Obama is chomping at the bit to raise our taxes for all the wrong reasons. I’m concerned that he’ll get us out of the Middle East and we won’t have a presence there to help contain the radical Islamist element to that area. I don’t want them coming here and suicide/murder bomb our malls and churches. I’m concerned that he doesn’t see a problem with people streaming over our borders for what ever reason. We already know that terrorists have entered our country through our porous borders. I’m concerned, not for myself, and not really for my children, but for what is going to be left of this country for my grandchildren to deal with. I’m scared, really scared, with the United States of America that they’ll be left with.

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