When the right looks wistfully at the J. Edgar Hoover era

The NYT had an interesting historical item over the weekend over the kind of power grab that might even give Dick Cheney pause.

A newly declassified document shows that J. Edgar Hoover, the longtime director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, had a plan to suspend habeas corpus and imprison some 12,000 Americans he suspected of disloyalty.

Hoover sent his plan to the White House on July 7, 1950, 12 days after the Korean War began. It envisioned putting suspect Americans in military prisons.

Hoover wanted President Harry S. Truman to proclaim the mass arrests necessary to “protect the country against treason, espionage and sabotage.” The F.B.I would “apprehend all individuals potentially dangerous” to national security, Hoover’s proposal said. The arrests would be carried out under “a master warrant attached to a list of names” provided by the bureau.

Apparently, the 12,000 Americans were part of a list Hoover had been compiling over the course of several years. In his correspondence to the president, he said, “The index now contains approximately twelve thousand individuals, of which approximately ninety-seven per cent are citizens of the United States.”

And how could Hoover detain 12,000 law-abiding Americans without charges? “In order to make effective these apprehensions, the proclamation suspends the Writ of Habeas Corpus,” it said.

Obviously, given the recent debate(s) over the suspension of habeas for “unlawful enemy combatants,” and Bush’s assertion that he can detain terrorist suspects indefinitely without charges, reading about Hoover’s extraordinary plan for “the permanent detention” of “disloyal” Americans maintains a certain contemporary salience.

Of course, some of our friends on the right perceive different lessons from this story.

At Power Line, the Hoover story in the NYT prompted this back-and-forth between John Hinderaker and Paul Mirengoff.

HINDERAKER: Hoover was too quick to judge people disloyal–it would be interesting to get a look at the list of 12,000–but some may feel nostalgic for a time when disloyalty was at least acknowledged to be a bad thing.

MIRENGOFF: Hoover did not favor the mass internment of Japanese-Americans that occurred after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

HINDERAKER: True. But if we had gone to war with the Soviet Union, I’ll bet he would have been champing at the bit to round up Communists and Communist sympathizers. Of course, there is a huge difference in principle between rounding up those who are believed to be disloyal and rounding up, or restricting the movements of, an entire ethnic group. And domestic Communists would have posed a far greater security risk than Japanese aliens and Japanese-Americans.

MIRENGOFF: Without a doubt. The World War II example shows that, at least in some cases, Hoover was less quick than certain liberals to judge people potentially disloyal.

First, the suggestion that “disloyalty” has become fashionable is just ugly, even by Power Line standards.

Second, as John Cole noted, “When your first instinct upon learning of [Hoover’s] plan is to try to figure out how the liberals are worse, you have issues.”

If we had gone to war with the Soviet Union, we all would have been vaporized. What a pair of morons.

  • The NYT had an interesting historical item over the weekend over the kind of power grab that might even give Dick Cheney pause.

    You don’t think Dick Cheney would go for that, CB?

    J. Edgar H. and his ilk are such idiots.

  • It’s not surprise as the authoritarians want to go back to “good” old days of the McCarthy era. That retro fantasy time when all was perfect in the US America where homosexuals were deep in the closet (or running the FBI), minorities and women knew their place (ie: subservient and dolice) to the white power boys and US America was dominant in a world rebuilding from the devastation of WW2. Well, good luck with that, morans (sic.)

    I also find it amusing in an ironic way that two guys named MIRENGOFF and HINDERAKER would want to go back to a time when those last names would probably have invoked suspicion and paranoia.

  • Obviously, given the recent debate(s) over the suspension of habeas for “unlawful enemy combatants,” and Bush’s assertion that he can detain terrorist suspects indefinitely without charges, reading about Hoover’s extraordinary plan for “the permanent detention” of “disloyal” Americans maintains a certain contemporary salience.

    People like J. Edgar Hoover are the ones who should be rounded up and interred in camps, for dreaming up plans like this and advancing them seriously. What a dangerous man. It shows you who the true enemies of America are.

    MIRENGOFF: Without a doubt. The World War II example shows that, at least in some cases, Hoover was less quick than certain liberals to judge people potentially disloyal.

    OK, so we’ve got an anecdote of a few very mainstream or even conservative liberals on the Supreme Court who supported the Japanese internment, when a whole lot of liberals and J. E. H. didn’t, but probably a whole lot of Americans in general did, and certainly loads of conservatives did. Leave it to a conservative, a Jonah Goldberg type, to turn that into “Liberals are racists.” How much you want to bet lots of people made it onto J. E. H.’s list at least partly because of their fraternization with racial minorities and their promotion of the civil rights movement?

    The FBI, and certainly J. Edgar Hoover, were yucky in those days. And they still are. The FBI prosecuted the Klan because it was ordered to, not because it is an anti-racist organization. If it was up to the FBI, we probably would have been shoveling black guys and hippies into gas chambers and ovens in the ’60s. Why is it again the FBI says the animal rights movement is the greatest terrorist threat to America after Al Qaeda, when we’ve still got the KKK, the Aryan Nation, and the Bloods and the Crips around?? It must be a way to make white suburban liberals, the type of people who donate money to Hillary Clinton and pro-abortion candidates, look bad, because I don’t remember ever hearing of an animal rights activist shooting somebody, lynching somebody, or beating somebody up. If the FBI is really that worried about some fur-wearing richie-riches getting red paint thrown on them- basically a prank- every once in a long while, they are a really incompetent national police force.

  • I also find it amusing in an ironic way that two guys named MIRENGOFF and HINDERAKER would want to go back to a time when those last names would probably have invoked suspicion and paranoia.

    Heh!

    Good one, Former Dan.

  • Point 1: it wasn’t “liberals” who came up with the idea of interning the Japanese, but rather a group of far-far-right California politicians, led by the Los Angeles Times, who had all been long involved in “yellow peril” politics since before World War I, and had been major supporters of the exclusionary Immigration Act of 1924 that embedded the KKK’s idea of who would make a “good American” into law for 40 years.

    As usual, the fuckwits were on the Right, where they always are.

    Roosevelt, to his everlasting shame, signed Executive Order 1066 as much to bring the far right of the Republican Party away from their pro-Nazi “isolationism” as it was to “defend” the country.

    Point 2: J. Edgar TutuDancer was probably the single worst, most pernicious scum to ever have a job in American government. Even my father – who respected him has a fellow Freemason – finally came to see him for what he was when dad was persecuted by Fools & Buffoons Inc. for the crime of being my father when I was being pursued through COINTELPRO for the crime of believing the Constitution was the law of the land.

    Point 3: The only thing that’s changed about Fools & Buffoons Inc. since TutuDancer’s day is that they’re not just white male (primarily Mormon) morons anymore. (Eddie used to prefer Mormons since they had “a strong attachment to authority” as he put it) Those asswipes would be perfectly happy today to arrest every reader of this blog as a “potential terrorist,” since they can’t find any enemies any other way.

  • RE: Swan- “Some fur-wearing richie-riches getting red paint thrown on them- basically a prank”

    That one just pissed me off. Let me tell you about these pranksters.They want to tell me I can’t eat meat or dairy. I can’t wear leather. Researchers can’t use animals for potentially life saving research. Well, fuck them. They’re the same zealots who won’t allow stemcell research. The same ” I know God’s own truth” assholes who taunt women entering and exiting abortion clinics. And they couldn’t give a rat’s ass about you or me.

    Ten years ago my 75 year old mother (who was no “richie-rich” was taking her fur coat into a fur dealer for summer storage. I was helping her get around. Some PETA jerk (actually criminal) began berating her on the sidewalk outside the store. While I was parking the car, one of them threw a bucket of red paint on her. And then ran away like a scared little child. My mother didn’t have a clue what this was about and reacted by falling on the sidewalk and breaking her hip. Guess what? She went into the hospital and never recovered.

    So don’t tell me they never shot, lynched or beat someone up. They’ve bombed laboratories, released infected animals on an innocent population, and yes, killed my mother.

    Anyone who is so sure of their moral position that they would harm others is fucking dangerous and ought to be locked up.

  • I want to apologize to Swan for my tirade. I just blew when I heard these people described as innocent pranksters. They are not. Nothing personal towards you.

    In any event, I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

  • Hoover was sick…lived with his mother his whole life and thought the US was full of “fornicators”. He abused his position to the max spying on everyone, even the president, and building up blackmail dossiers on all influential people in the US. A real mix of good and evil but definitely a power broker.

    What do you think he would have considered “disloyal”? Might have been corporate involvement with America’s enemies for profit…you know, a typical day of business for the GOP supporters.

  • Charlie T, I’m sorry about how your mother died. Righteousness, on all sides, harms people.

  • “because I don’t remember ever hearing of an animal rights activist shooting somebody, lynching somebody, or beating somebody up.”

    You don’t pay attention, clearly. PETA provides funding for the legal defense of people who set fire to animal testing clinics and threaten the lives of the scientists who work there. These are people to whom your life is less important than that of an animal. At best, they’re well-meaning, if misguided. At worst, they’re dangerous zealots for whom the cause provides a useful excuse for their own anti-social behavior.

  • Actually, Jen, righteousness is just fine. It’s self-righteousness that’s intolerant/intolerable.

  • I hope that I live to see the name on the FBI headquarters building changed. What does it say about today’s FBI that they operate out of the “J. Edgar Hoover Building”?

    Nothing good.

  • Did Hoover really not favor internment? What, didn’t he want to lose his Japanese houseboy?

  • Thanks for your excellent post, Tom Deaver. Hoover was extremely pernicous partly because I think he wasn’t just a closet case, but twisted with guilt and repressing his sexulity – don’t know what he did with Clyde, but I can envision lots of messages with only occasional orgasm later guilty fumed over by Eddie.

    Hoover was the Cheney of his time – Hoover had sexual pathologies (not being gay, but being a f.u. with his sexuality and sexual orientation- Cheney has heart trouble (finding one).

  • corrections: “massages” not “messages” – that’s the only meaning-one. others are spelling or grammar. ya gets da picture anyways. merry chirstmas!

  • ……………so…….? anyone left who cares about this is too old or dead,stupid story for a headliner don’t you think?!!

  • OkieFromMuskogee,

    The FBI operating from the J. Edgar Hoover building, the CIA operating from the GEORGE H.W. BUSH CENTER FOR CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE, and everyone flying into and out of the airport named for the senile Ronald Reagan –

    Is it any surprise that our government has lied us into a war in Iraq and is trying to lie us into another in Iran, while here at home they are trying hard to eliminate the middle class and recreate a feudal society run by the inheritors of great wealth like Eric Prince of Blackwater International?

    Only a fool would miss the rapid movement of America away from the Constitution and towards a typically American form of Fascism with a cross and a flag. So maybe Brooks Brothers suits with ties have replaced black shirts and jack boots, which were of course, the working clothes for thugs in those days. Centralization of corporate control of the media has replaced marches in the streets and public rallies under search lights. (FOX. Clear Channel. And the FCC is encouraging more centralization to please their corporate bosses.)

    This is America today. Look around you, and then ask yourself what the Romans saw as the Republic morphed into the Empire. The change has already happened here, we are looking back.

    But who gives a shit? We have only lost the Constitution and the American Republic. Look at what we get in exchange! Ask Mitt Romney or Rudy Giuliani. We get a President who is morphing into a Monarch! Check out thje cover of The American Conservative and Mitt Romney’s Pursuit of tyrannical power. These are not radical moves. They are baby steps forward from what we live under right now and which has been in place for seven years.

    We no longer are in the position of trying to prevent Fascism from taking over America. Now we have to dismantle the Fascism that has been in command for nearly a decade.

    Much of the Democratic Party leadership (*cough* Harry Reid, Rahm Emanuel, Nancy Pelosi, the DLC *cough*) has bought into the current system.

    Hoover wouldn’t even stand our as unusual in our present government. He is only noticeable because he was a forerunner.

    Every Republican candidate for the nomination for President wants to extend the present Fascism even further. And as near as I can tell, Clinton wants to compromise with the Facists in the DLC manner, and Obama offers to negotiate with them, get them to work with him, and avoid conflict. Maybe Edwards has some comprehension of where this nation is. I don’t know.

    The building names are just a symptom of how far this nation as gone away from the Constitution and from democracy. At a guess, I would suspect that the source of America’s problems are three things
    1. control of too much of the economy by wealthy owners (much as what created feudalism after the Roman Empire collapsed) and trade disappeared)
    2. the deep racism that infects this nation and which is used by the corporate owners to divide the lower classes and keep them from taking power to protect themselves and their families, and
    3. the fact that America was the only industrial nation to come out of WW II without being totally destroyed, leaving those corporate owners still in control.

    I think that the American Constitutional Republic that operated democratically is over. The American experiment has failed. There is nothing left that can be done internally inside the U.S. The conservative fascist names on government buildings are just a symptom.

  • The very fact that the left-wing crybabies on this board are able to spew their infantile, wholly unsubstantiated, pathetic vituperations about the US government without anything remotely resembling retribution is proof that their claims that the US is (or is becoming) a fascist state are patently untrue. It is funny to note however, that they have all the social pathologies and character flaws (bigotry, paranoia, ignorance, and childishly oversimplified world views) that they ascribe to those they disagree with. Psychologists have a name for this: it’s called projection. Get professional help.

  • Jack wrote

    The very fact that the left-wing crybabies on this board are able to spew their infantile, wholly unsubstantiated, pathetic vituperations…blah, blah, blah…

    If we evaluate this reply in terms of the quality of its argument, it’s just a simple counter-claim. It’s not an argument at all; it’s a statement of opinion, i.e., it is Jack’s opinion that “these so-and-sos” are asses, and the assertions he makes are as bold and generalized as any that came before, left or right.

    I see this all the time on political threads. Tiny-minded crap advanced in pedantic diatribes that boil down to “up yours, Lefty!” (or Righty)

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