When the right loves — and hates — the separation of church and state

Case Study #1.

When pools of water began accumulating on the floor in some restrooms at the University of Michigan-Dearborn, and the sinks pulling away from the walls, the problem was easy to pinpoint. On this campus, more than 10 percent of the students are Muslims, and as part of ritual ablutions required before their five-times-a-day prayers, some were washing their feet in the sinks.

The solution seemed straightforward. After discussions with the Muslim Students’ Association, the university announced that it would install $25,000 foot-washing stations in several restrooms.

But as a legal and political matter, that solution has not been quite so simple. When word of the plan got out this spring, it created instant controversy, with bloggers going on about the Islamification of the university, students divided on the use of their building-maintenance fees, and tricky legal questions about whether the plan is a legitimate accommodation of students’ right to practice their religion — or unconstitutional government support for that religion.

As I noted the other day, this is a fairly tricky constitutional question, but the right seems to have reached a conclusion. Debbie Schlussel, a conservative lawyer and blogger in Southfield, Mich., posted, “Forget about the Constitutionally mandated separation of church and state … at least when it comes to mosque and state.”

Which leads us to Case Study #2.

The churches seem to turn up here often and randomly.

In this town of 3,000 residents, there are at least 15 churches. Maybe 20. They’re featured prominently on business street corners. They’re also tucked away — hidden almost — on residential blocks.

So you don’t need to travel far to find the good Lord, as they say. In fact, visitors can’t drive into town without a holy hello.

“Welcome to The Village of Alorton,” say two green-and-white billboards with lights shining on them. “Where Jesus is Lord. Randy McCallum Mayor.”

This is less constitutionally tricky. Government offices and officials are supposed to be neutral on matters of faith. Having taxpayer-supported signs advertising that Alorton is a town where “Jesus is Lord” is not neutrality.

The far-right has made up its mind on this, too:

Bruce Hausknecht, judicial analyst for Focus on the Family Action, said: “If the Supreme Court hadn’t erroneously decided at one point that the First Amendment phrase ‘Congress shall make no law…’ should now include states, municipalities, even schools, we would not be in the position where an organization like the ACLU could roam to and fro across the land, seeking those acknowledgements of God they could devour with their well-oiled machine of intimidation and litigation.

“The arrogance displayed here by the ACLU in not caring if the whole town believes the sign’s message is illustrative of the Left’s intentions of coercing every corner of the country to follow its secularized, anti-Christian worldview.”

So, if a university wants to accommodate the religious practices of Muslim students at a state school with a high Muslim population, the First Amendment applies and there should be a clear separation between church and state. The school should be entirely neutral on matters of faith, and the Bill of Rights is absolutely relevant to the actions of a local university.

If a town wants to spend tax-dollars on signs advertising that Christianity is the dominant faith, the First Amendment shouldn’t apply and there is no separation between church and state. The town need not be entirely neutral on matters of faith, and the Bill of Rights is only relevant to the actions of the federal government.

Funny how perspectives change based on whose religious liberties are being protected, isn’t it?

It’s almost as if you are suggesting a level of hypocrisy on the matter…

  • I didn’t comment the other day on the foot bath question because I wanted to think about it a bit. My first reaction was, so let them put in some foot baths and save the cost of constant repair to the sinks. On consideration, that is still my feeling. Provided, however, that the foot baths are open and available to all to use. There has been many a time when I would have really enjoyed a cool, refreshing foot soak. As long as the foot baths are not restricted in their use, I don’t see why they aren’t a public convenience.

    As for your larger poiunt, CB, of the hypocrisy of the religious right — well, that is a bit like noticing that a bright, shining object comes up in the sky every morning on the eastern horizon.

  • and the sinks pulling away from the walls,

    MW, is this really referring to the Muslims somehow breaking the sinks by washing their feet in them? Because that sounds really unlikely. Instead, I think in a lot of old buildings the sink fixtures don’t necessarily fit perfectly flush to the wall– just to save money on a plumbing job or equipment years ago when they were first installed, I’ll wager. I’ve seen it a lot in buildings with old plumbing, particularly public or school buildings where you didn’t necessarily have a rich owner willing to throw down the money to get it just right. I’m betting the writer was just including the detail to provide some imagery, or didn’t understand what’s going on. It’s amazing to me that the Muslims would be actually pulling the sinks out of the wall to get their feet into them easier, unless they were sitting n the rims of the bowls.

  • Anyway, easy solution- install the foot-washing sinks and forget about it.

    Didn’t we make Christmas a holiday for most state purposes, and give Jews off for all sorts of holidays? If we’re going to get along with Muslims, we need to make accommodations for their religion that they really need, too.

  • Think of all the money we lose in productivity each year because Jews and Christians get certain holidays off. Maybe we’d actually lose more money due to lost productivity, because of the ancillary effects of discontent, if we didn’t give those days off.

    And image how less easy it would be for all the loons and crazies in the world to think we’re a country they have to wage jihad against if you could pretty easily find foot-washing stations in all sorts of places in America. We already have Muslim chaplains in all branches of the military, right?

  • They never face their own hypocrisy.
    “The arrogance displayed here by the ACLU in not caring if the whole town believes the sign’s message is illustrative of the Left’s intentions of coercing every corner of the country to follow its secularized, anti-Christian worldview.”

    Not wanting to see religion advertised on billboards doesn’t mean you have an anti-Christian view, no more than seeing a young couple in a sex act on a billboard would make me anti-sex. Accommodating these Muslims with equipment needed to clean their feet at their own expense is like accommodating handicap access to libraries. It is a mere practicality, not a statement of religious support.

    It’s like these “Christian” organizations are saying, “If our government won’t make this a Christian Theocracy then we are going to make everyone miserable.”
    Having the equipment needed to clean their feet doesn’t impose on anyone’s religious beliefs or promote any religion. It should be a no brainer.

  • Where’s the hypocrisy? America is a CHRISTIAN nation. Therefore, it can’t be
    separated from the state. As the Chosen People, the Jews can ride the Christian
    coatails, as long as they keep their place. The first amendment is there to keep
    those heathen so-called religions from getting any favor or influence in our godly
    government. Next thing you know wiccans will want their emblem on tombstones
    in Arlington. [/snark]

  • I’m bothered that I don’t have an answer to the foot baths. Since they’re an accommodation that’s open to the public and have no religious message upon them, I don’t see the problem with them.

    But I still don’t have an answer…

    At what point does giving space or time turn into promotion?

  • As a secular progressive, I have to err on the side of the separation of church and state. While I understand that Muslims constitute a significant population in this country and at the University of Michigan-Dearborn, and I understand that the foot-washing activity in the sinks there was causing a problem –although I personally find it somewhat disgusting– I can’t imagine that the only alternative is to build foot-washing stations at taxpayer expense.

    For example, ever heard of a quick shower? No showers on campus?

    As far as the city where Jesus is Lord, they might as well have erected a sign that says “Non-Christians Keep Out.”

  • Somehow I don’t think desert caravan muslims were washing their feet 5 times a day. Unless the whole group used the same bucket over & over. That would be some nasty water after a while.

  • they could also solve the problem by getting taller students. that way, no pulling the sinks away from the wall trying to reach them.

  • Several Muslims might win democratic city council elections in Hamtramck, Michigan (a city near Detroit), leading to a Muslim majority on the council. Would Focus on the Family Action be happy if Hamtramck erected signs saying “There is no God but God, and Mohammad is his prophet” outside the city? They were elected, after all…

    I don’t think so. Some of the Christianists are getting worked up about it. Americablog has the story.

  • Have a read of the comments on these links, possibly a better comparison for the town sign double standard the right wing has. They are about a town in Michigan that could have 5 Muslim representatives elected to local office.

    http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/08/hamtramck_michigan_could_be_fi.php

    http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/08/michigan_city_could_become_fir.php

    I particularly liked the ones that suggest that non Christians should be prohibited from running for public office.

    I submitted a comment reminding them about freedom of RELIGION, not just Christianity and also the bit about “there shall be no religious test” ( which they complained about when Roberts and Allito were quizzed about how they would interpret the constitution), but they didn’t publish it.

  • JKap: I can’t imagine that the only alternative is to build foot-washing stations at taxpayer expense.

    For example, ever heard of a quick shower? No showers on campus?

    That’s just it. Rhetoric like this doesn’t solve the problem. Are we now going to hire people to police the bathrooms to discourage “inappropriate use” of the sinks?; Counsel Muslim students on alternatives? Imagine how that would come across to the Muslim community.

    Moreover, would installing humans cost less than installing new hardware? I doubt it. The fact of the matter is that tax payers’ money should be spent as wisely and as efficiently as business owners’ and shareholders’. As long as the expense is justified, it doesn’t make sense not to install the foot baths.

  • JKap: I can’t imagine that the only alternative is to build foot-washing stations at taxpayer expense.

    For example, ever heard of a quick shower? No showers on campus?

    That’s just it. Rhetoric like this doesn’t solve the problem. Are we now going to hire people to police the bathrooms to discourage “inappropriate use” of the sinks?; Counsel Muslim students on alternatives? Imagine how that would come across to the Muslim community.

    Moreover, would installing humans cost less than installing new hardware? I doubt it. The fact of the matter is that tax payers’ money should be spent as wisely and as efficiently as business owners’ and shareholders’. As long as the expense is justified, it doesn’t make sense not to install the foot baths.

  • Let’s face it. If Republicans and religious right-wingers didn’t exhibit such breathtaking hypocrisy every day, day after day, left-wing bloggers like our friend the Carpetbagger would have to work a lot harder coming up with subjects to blog about.

    This stuff practically writes itself.

  • Separation of church in state should apply to all religions, period. Besides, why don’t the Mulems just clean up the water on the floor when thier finished?

  • This is an interesting problem. My inclination is to accept the foot washing stations as a reasonable response to a need to maintain the sinks, and besides it would gross me out to think that people were washing their feet in the sinks in which I washed my hands.

    What is the ‘Christian’ parallel? Providing confessionals? Why? Because too many people were confessing their sins in public?

    Rooms for handling dangerous snakes?

    I’m not trying to be facetious. I’m just trying to find an appropriate analogue.

  • Separation of church in state should apply to all religions, period. Besides, why don’t the Mulems just clean up the water on the floor when thier finished?

    But separation of church and state includes not unduly burdening the practice of religion. If it’s not a burden on others, to have foot-washing stations in the bathrooms, then what’s the rationale for not having them? Just to give the Muslims problems and make it harder to keep the floor clean in a place where there are many Muslims?

    Besides, why don’t the Mulems just clean up the water on the floor when thier finished?

    That’s like saying, we shouldn’t supply welfare, because “why don’t those people just get a job?” People aren’t perfect, and sinks for washing your hands aren’t a great accommodation when what you need is to be able to wash your feet. What you’re suggesting is discriminatory.

  • As an atheist I’m always trying to help my religious brothers and sisters (do Islamic women wash their feet too?) I propose Islamic Footiwipes. If the faithful are doubtul about using Footiwipes then perhaps some Imam can issue a fatwa okaying it. Or perhaps a footwa.

    Maybe Christian Footiwipes could be a soaked in holy water.

  • Regarding the quote from the Focus on the Family guy: the “neutrality=hostility” argument is getting really old. Also, he seem to suggest that it is perfectly okay for state and local governments to establish religions. Good grief. Also, why does the FOTF comment on this story in the first place? Whatever one thinks of the inclusion of the “Where Jesus is Lord.” portion of the sign, what does it have to do with focusing on the family?

  • #9 JKap said
    As far as the city where Jesus is Lord, they might as well have erected a sign that says “Non-Christians Keep Out.”

    It is unfortunate that you view it that way…most of the Christians that I know would not intend it that way. There is that verse in the Bible about “Go forth and make disciples of all nations”…hard to do that if you put up signs intending to keep people away! I can see how non-Christians might feel unwelcome, but most churches I know do not preach that Christians should beat up, kill, mock, intimidate or scare non-Christians. I would merely interpret this sign as the town being proud of its culture.

    I’m honestly not sure how a billboard saying “Where Jesus is Lord” violates the Constitution…”Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. Does that mean local governments are an extension of Congress? A reasonable extension of the principle, to be sure, but not a literal interpretation IMHO. Would it be illegal for a group of Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. to form their own municipality, and create local laws in accordance with their faith? Check out the Domino’s pizza guy. Now, I don’t think it would be beneficial for this country to splinter into religious-based communities like that, but I hardly think that is going to happen. The question is, whose rights does it violate if a group of like-minded people want to form their own community? Do they not have the right to do that?

  • The question is, whose rights does it violate if a group of like-minded people want to form their own community? Do they not have the right to do that? — Addison, @22

    If the citizens of the town had a vote, and 100% of them voted for the sign, I’d say they should be able to post whatever they please, since they all agree on how to spend their tax money.

    But, like JKap, I’d also “read” the sign as “non-Christians need not apply” and would try to pass the place by with as big a radius as possible. Wouldn’t even want to stop for lunch there, much less live there. Individual Christians I can tolerate — some of them are even nice people. But when religion (or *any* kind of fanaticism) takes over the collective mind of a group of people… I’m outa there as fast as I can make it on my short legs.

  • The foot-baths are a classic case of what I believe the courts call a “reasonable accommodation” of religion, like letting someone wear a yarmulke, or not have to shave their beard, at work.

    Plus, if this goes through, Karen Hughes can place the story on Al Jazeera and use it as propaganda in the Islamic world–look at how nice we are to Muslim students in Michigan!

    On the other hand if the Kristians prevent it, I hope the sink falls on them, LOL.

    If the ACLU is okay with it, who are we to quarrel?

    JKap”: ‘”Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. Does that mean local governments are an extension of Congress?”‘

    Actually, yes. The doctrine of “incorporation” is the current interpretation of the 14th Amendment; it extends the protections of the Bill of Rights to state actions (and through the states to the actions of smaller govt entities, though I’m a bit hazy on the doctrine there). Some wacko right-wingers would like to undo this, unbelievably. (E.g., Rudy Giuliani would really have had a field day when he was mayor, unconstrained by rights to free speech, press, assembly…oy!)

    P.S. The Dominic’s guy (“Ave Maria City”) will get into the same trouble that some Orthodox Jews did, trying this in upstate New York. They wanted to use public funds for Orthodox-only public schools. Can’t be done. You can’t refuse to sell or rent a house on the basis of religion; so you can’t keep the town “pure.” You can’t pass laws that have no secular function–the courts will strike them down. Dominic’s guy is already getting in trouble re “no birth control in town” etc.

    By the way, I always find it amusing that it’s conservatives, who frequently complain about “balkanization,” who want to retire to their homogeneous enclaves.

  • … the operative word here is “university” … you mean to tell me that those assholes have ‘reached’ a supposedly higher level of education and still believe in such religious stupidity as the quran …? or bible for that matter … or any other religious comic book renditions of what their gaaaawds asked them to do to submit -very a-propos word if you ax me- to his little religious clique … you want in then you cut off your dick their ‘prickly’ god tells the jews … for the muslims it was more of a joke to ask people living in a desert environment to waste water on washing uselessly parts of the body that could easily have been licked clean by the proper amorous display of affection that these retarded bedouins profess towards their livestock but find disgusting on to do with their women .. I call them camel fuckers for a reason …. meanwhile back our goat/sheep fuckers -that would be the jews- are claiming miracles and feats of technologically advanced crafts -building an ark so huge when the naval capacities of the times allowed for the sizes of ships to be a little bigger than the ones most american now have in their back yards- while our xtians friends just do not know anymore … xtians are so fucked up from having stolen their religion to begin with that what they needed to do to ‘transform’ what they had stolen is now biting them in the ass … serves them well for fucking with the one true god of the jews .. just kidding!!
    (capital/lower case letters intended .)

  • Rolandc, aside from the obviously venomous and unproductive tone of your post, and aside from the fact that you’re merely ossifying the beliefs and superstitions of the radical religious among us, do you really think that even a non-believer (like you or like myself) are, or could ever be, 100% free of religious tradition? If you wear clothing, ascribe to traditional gender roles at all, avoid using profanity in any situations (present situation excluded), are married, have felt discomfort with the thought of your parents/grandparents/child having sex, and on and on, then you (like most of us) still possess vestiges of the religion/culture legacy.

    Sure, it’s all mythology but it affects our behavior more than we care to admit.

  • …. could not agree with your writings more JTK, the point you are missing is that NOW is the time to stop ‘acting’ on those vestiges …. furthermore it is the most volatile of excuses that you choose to ‘lean’ on as you use the sempiternal get-out-of-jail-free card, the mother of all excuses that ‘WE’ are such and such … forget that ‘we’ part and act/think on YOUR own … it is not because almost all humans are religiously deficient (I’ll grant you it is innate because as a chemical creature we are totally insane by definition) that we should not acknowledge sanity when it shows its beautiful head …. remember that some of us ‘deficients’ DO WORK at curbing these deficiencies and their effects .. THINKING truly is the hardest thing to swallow for most humans but it can be done …

  • Rolandc: the point you are missing is that NOW is the time to stop ‘acting’ on those vestiges ….

    Likewise, I couldn’t agree more with your comments with the notable exception of your counterpoint:

    “NOW” is not a time but an elusive abstraction. IOW, on either side of ‘now’ are ‘before’ and ‘after’ which squeeze poor ‘now’ completely out of physical existence. Before I meander too far into left field, my point is that everyone will decide when the time is right to shed their mores. And, as much as it pains us to compromise what we deem to be our essential integrity, we cannot simply rip off all our clothes and run into the streets to proclaim it. We will surely frighten those who are not yet ready.

    Which brings me back round to the whole point of my response to you: If your intent is to help others cross the bridge of reason, spouting profanities and “blaspheming” their beliefs is going to be just as effective as flushing a Qur’an down the toilet for all the world to see.

  • my dear JTK -may I call you J- there is no way that you can go too far into said left field as I was studying nagualism as long as 35 years ago … went a little further than ‘left’ when I realized ‘Infinity’ -of Thought that is- and I am now devoid of all human attributes … at 14 I was teaching philosophers, at 45 their ‘doctorated’ fellows were still looking for the Truth as I was way past having been a free thinker to become a Thinker of/on the Infinite …. and believe you me, we humans ain’t nothing to write home about and humans -most humans that is- should be the very last ones to believe because of what we come up with as far as thoughts are concerned -being that thoughts emanate from a failed/self-deluding organ- BUT still we must roll up that newspaper and hit our beloved puppies on the nose once in awhile for it to learn not to shit on the couch … same goes for humans or whatever those things are that walk amongst us … I really hate that word: ‘believe’ . Knowing is much better …

  • Rolandc: BUT still we must roll up that newspaper and hit our beloved puppies on the nose once in awhile for it to learn not to shit on the couch …

    But we must be sure not to hit the dog so hard that we discourage all contact with its master rather than simply its aberrant behavior.

  • … hey JTK ever seen a lioness paw a cub that was too rough on her teats? … if a lowly animal can do it believe you me so can I. … you worry too much …

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