Who, exactly, is offering the White House advice?

White House Press Secretary Tony Snow held a quick gaggle with reporters in Crawford yesterday, when an interesting subject came up.

Q: Tony, earlier this year the President brought in some advisors to talk about the war in Iraq, some outsiders — outside experts. Is he doing anything similar, or are any senior officials doing anything similar with respect to the Middle East? Are you bringing in any outside experts or —

Snow: Yes.

Q: — perhaps Jewish or Christian or Muslim —

Snow: There have been meetings of that sort in recent days.

Q: What can you tell us about them?

Snow: You know what, I’ll see what I’m cleared to tell you about.

Asked what “types of people” have offered the White House advice on the Middle East, Snow said, “Again, at this point, I really don’t want to do it.” Asked if “religious leaders” have been part of these meetings, Snow said, “Again, I’m just not going to go any further.”

Why all the secrecy? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that White House recently invited a Christian apocalyptic fiction writer to chat about biblical prophecy.

The Washington Post’s Dan Froomkin spoke with Joel C. Rosenberg — who recently told CNN that the rapture may be near and it’d be a good idea for people to start taking care of unfinished business — who explained that he was invited last year to “speak to a ‘couple dozen’ White House aides in the Old Executive Office Building — and has stayed in touch with several of them since.”

Rosenberg wouldn’t say exactly what was discussed. “The meeting itself was off the record, as you could imagine,” he said. He declined to name the staffer he said invited him or describe the attendees in any way other than to say that the president was not among them. “I can’t imagine they’d want to talk about it,” he said.

“I can’t tell you that the people that I spoke with agree with me, or believe that prophecy can really help you understand what will happen next in the Middle East, but I’m not surprised that they’re intrigued.”

The White House press office wasn’t able to confirm the visit for me, but there have been previous reports about White House Bible study groups inviting Christian authors to come speak.

Rosenberg — like Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, the authors of the phenomenally popular “Left Behind” series — writes fiction inspired by biblical prophecy about the apocalypse. The consistent theme is that certain current events presage the end times, the Rapture, and the return of Jesus Christ. Rosenberg’s particular pitch to journalists is that his books come true.

Rosenberg told Froomkin that a White House staffer contacted him and said, “A lot of people over here [in the White House] are reading your novels, and they’re intrigued that these things keep on happening…. Your novels keep foreshadowing actual coming events…. And so we’re curious, how are you doing it? What’s the secret? Why don’t you come over and walk us through the story behind these novels?”

Rosenberg, of course, is welcome to believe whatever he wishes. It’s when the White House asks him to come in for a discussion that I start getting nervous.

I can only hope Rosenberg was exaggerating and that Snow’s reluctance to talk about “advisors” brought in to the White House to chat about the Middle East had nothing to do with writers of apocalyptic fiction.

Rosenberg obviously has already volunteered to be one of the 144,000 Jews who avoid being cast into the firest of eternal damnation at the Second Coming by testifying that Jesus is indeed his Lord and Savior.

There was once a term for guys like him: Kapo.

  • It appears that not all Christian wingnuts are on the same page on the “end of times.” This isCal Thomas on the topic:

    Speaking of his return, Jesus of Nazareth warned about deceivers who would come in his name, claiming to have knowledge about dates, times and the end of this world. His forecasts of “wars and rumors of wars,” nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom, famines and earthquakes (Matthew 24:4-8) sound like the newspaper front page.

    Those events, he said, will be followed by persecution of his followers (already rampant in parts of the world), false prophets, an increase in wickedness and all sorts of other things. He said this would just be the beginning, or “birth pains.” Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice used almost the same words when she spoke of the wars in Lebanon and Iraq as the “birth pangs” of a new Middle East. Jesus added that, “the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” (Luke 12:40)

    On that authority, the end isn’t yet upon us, because too many expect it. But, as Tim LaHaye said on “Good Morning America” last week, it is still good to be prepared. Stop worrying about dates and times, though, unless you’re writing a book, making a movie or delivering a speech. In those circumstances, “prophets” can make big profits with their modern equivalent of sandwich boards that proclaim the end is near.

  • A friend recently reported seeing a bumper sticker that said, “After the Rapture, Can I Have Your Car”. ‘nough said.

  • I’m United Methodist. I was always taught that no one would be able to predict when Jesus would return, so I find all this talk about end times to be nonsense. I talked to my pastor about it and he agreed. He said this is a “phase,” that we’ve gone through this before, and before long, it will be pushed aside, ready to be exploited on another day.

  • They are trying to scare their faithful base with the last scare tactic there is – The End of The World. Give ’em a reason to vote in the mid-terms.

    Hopefully they are just trying tolearn the fundamentalist framework and lingo that has sold so many books, DVDs, etc. Of course, if they believe they have the power to bring on Armageddon, we are pretty much all screwed.

  • Joel C. Rosenberg — who recently told CNN that the rapture may be near and it’d be a good idea for people to start taking care of unfinished business. . .

    Honestly, this is the piece of “end time” advice that I just do not get. It seems that Mr. Rosenberg’s advice should be not to concern yourself with unfinished business. Stop paying bills, forget about cleaning house, and only a sucker would fund their retirement or their kids college fund.

    And if he is refering to unfinished spiritual business, shouldn’t that call for more radical measures? Stop going to work and join that monestary! Or mabye a pilgramige is on order?

    Regardless, we are not talking about death here, when you want your affairs in order to make it easier for your kids future. It would seem that any unfinished business “of this world” would have no importance to anyone expecting to soon enter the next.

  • Horse puckey!

    If I thought the Bush Crime Family were serious about anything religious, I’d worry. People whose friends include Enron crooks and “shock and awe” generals are to be reckoned with, seriously and with suspicion, but there isn’t so much as a religious twinge in their creepy bodies.

    I think this bunch of ignorant and incurious bozos just wants to be entertained. They don’t even have the capacity to read books apparently: “Why don’t you come over and walk us through the story behind these novels?”

    “End times” is a crock, and anyone who takes such nonsense seriously doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously.

  • Bottom line- Abandon hope all ye who enter here-dante-I think.
    Jeesh, what a wonderful world we live on, we are so lucky to have such wise men giving council. When I get done writing I am going to go kill my cat, tell the gas company to go fuck themselves, and cancel my cable sevice-then I am going to go out in the garden, eat worms and wait for Jesus. oh, someone has to tell all the people we are killing not to worry, it is the end times and they are just grist for the mill of apocalyptic glory.

    What they don’t know is that when jesus comes they will just kill him again-he’s a left wing radical revolutionary, hence the enemy of a majority of right wing zealots.

    Which level of hell do you think we’re on?
    I wish Sam Kinnison was still with us-he’d straighten this out.

  • I think we should encourage all the “end timers” to think that the Rapture is imminent. We can assure them that since the Rapture is a done deal, there is no need to bother voting, since it won’t make a difference anyway.

    Let them make their plans to complete their “unfinished business”, and allay their concerns about the voting booth. Let’s reinforce the notion that there is no need for then to waste time voting when the Rapture is just around the corner. Let’s convince them that voting is just another wasteful effort, and preparing for Armageddon is just so much more important for them.

  • They aren’t serious about religion, they are serious about bolstering their faith based thinking. Their faith is anti-Christian, being based on unfettered greed, indifference to suffereing and poverty, and self-aggrandizement. But the notion of end-times fits in nicely, because it justifies their stupid behavior: “see, it was prophesized that I would drop bombs on Iran! Therefore, I must!”

    Weird me out.

  • “I think we should encourage all the “end timers” to think that the Rapture is imminent. We can assure them that since the Rapture is a done deal, there is no need to bother voting, since it won’t make a difference anyway.”

    Good idea! I used to tell the rapturites that the Rapture has already happened…you’re just stuck with the rest of us untill the end of days, but I didn’t think to try to make any kind of political hay out of it.

  • I think D Dale (#9) is on to something. Does anyone know of a Biblical verse that can be taken out of context to convince the fundies that they shouldn’t vote before the apocalypse.

  • The real question here is, does Presidunce StemCell believe in the Crapture and biblical Armageddon and feel he has been “chosen” to bring it about? Can we afford to take that chance? I worked for a guy with an IQ of 84 and he had 3 points on President Shitstain and I never met anyone more open to suggestion from others. I believe it is time to take away the keys from this presidunce before he initiates another disaster of biblical proportions. He should fall under a Lemon Law. We’ve driven it and every f__king thing has gone wrong with it. It’s time to bring in the lawyers and sue the dealer or get a new car. Bush has been a fraud from when he took office. Please read the article at the second link. In the last paragraph, it mentions that the US wants Israel to attack Syria. Shrub has no intention of slowing down, whatever the hell direction he is taking us. Will we all survive 2 more years of Shrub.

    The neocon’s next war

    IDF prepared for attack by Syria, US wants Israel to attack Syria (last paragraph)

    Israel wins support from Christian right
    Why can’t these Crapture nuts be like the ones waiting for an occasional comet, get a roll of quarters, a new pair of sneakers a big drink of Jonestown Koolaid and the national average IQ goes up.

  • For decades, I underestimated the religious right. “Fringe,” I think, was the term many of us used when referring to them. We didn’t take them seriously, and look what happened. Jesus talk is everywhere, and there seems to be no aspect of American life where they aren’t trying to exert their influence. Now we’re speculating — with good reason — as to what extent they’ve infiltrated, or at least have influenced, the WH. So, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss WH visits as pandering.

    The religious right may be as crazy as ever in terms of rationality and what I’d call spirituality, but they have worked themselves into some high places. They’re empowered, they’re absolutely convinced they’re right, and they’re not going away.

    We dismiss or ignore or underestimate them at our own peril.

  • A while back I got on John Stewart’s case for sharing a chuckle with John McCain regarding Alaska’s Ted Stevens’s profound internet stupidity…

    [Note: McCain sold out on net neutrality which in my book automatically makes him an enemy of humanity. Yes… I believe the internet should be owned by the PUBLIC rather than by republican donating CEO’s like ATT’s Frog-killing, Texan, Edward E. Whitacre. ]

    But with this piece on the rapture… Stewart once again affirms why he is the most important voice in America right now.

    He is making a mockery of that which needs to be made a mockery of…

  • This is the same reason why Bush and his Ilk don’t give a crap about the environment? Why? If the world is gonna end. I wake up every day thinking WWJD about George W. Bush????

    Probably punch him in the face… then forgive him.

    Bush is a war criminal and needs to be impeached.

    We are the laughing stock of the world due to Mr. Bush. I am embarrassed that he was NEVER elected in the first place.

  • Goldilocks: The virgin thing appears to be an open question. Once folks check out, they never call, they never write, so we really don’t know. Then again, maybe they don’t have time because they’re busy frolicking (?).

  • Actually, the “72 virgins” thing appears to have been a mistranslation. The same Arabic phrase could easily be translated (and probably was intended as) “72 chilled green grapes”, a delicacy served guests in the mostly dessert Muslim world.

    Boy, are those suicide-bombers in for a big surprise. Another reason we shouldn’t be kicking gay Arab-translators out of the military.

  • I find the whole psychology of end times fascinating. At every point in history, there is a group that believe the end is nigh.
    It appears to be some sort fo need within them that cannot actually be fulfilled. It seems to be a management tool for them to handle some of the misery they feel. Instead of actually fixing their lives, they hold onto this endtime date where, externally to them, things will change for them and their lives will get better. (Damn, that rapture is gunna be good!)

    Of course, there are always signs. There are always ‘leaders’ pointing our the signs. The end invariably doesn’t come to pass. What happens to those people? do they go find the next date of the end or do they actually get past this need?

    What really spooks me is this psychology is being readily exploited for votes by the most powerful state in the world.
    This time, the rest of us are spooked about the end times because the geese that believe in this week’s endtime prophecy actually have the power to induce it and kill us all.

    Now, about the virgins…

  • I’ll be damned if I’d blow myself up for 72 chilled green grapes. 104, maybe.

    Anyhow, we don’t have a White House anymore. We have a tent meeting revival. All we’re missing is snakes. If you don’t count Rove.

  • I’ve always been mystified on the preference for virgins amongst various societies. I’d prefer 72 well worn experienced women that could f–k my brains out. Let the Republicans have the virgins.

  • Some reporter needs to ask Snow: can you assure the American people that the President is not setting policy in the Middle East based on a belief that the End Times are near?
    It would put him on the spot–deny it and he alienates Bush’s base; wobble on it and the rest of the country sees why some of us are freaking out.

  • To wbfree. (#8)
    The “Sam” is right.. but “Harris” is his last name, and he has quite eloquently straightened it all out. (See link at bottom ) Its a shame that the fundamentalists will spell out the end of us all. Even the “moderately religious” represent a failure of rational thinking.

    I was born and raised a Baptist in MI. Through college, and after, I really tried.. I TRIED to believe in the faith of my upbringing. But you know what? I couldn’t. I could not accept something that has no emprical evidence to support it, along with the guilt, pain, and mutual exclusivity the major religions come with….
    I highly recommend Sam Harris reading on Truthdig.org
    http://www.truthdig.com/interview/item/20060403_sam_harris_interview

    I truly hope everyone has a chance to read (and thoroughly understand) his articles on religion in our world.
    -Stewbob

  • Remember the good old days when secret White House meetings involved Monica?
    The many dark sins of the republi-theocrats make Bill look like a saint. The smug unexamined piety of blind “worship” breeds an intoxicating reckless certitude that invites disaster. Bush is governing under the influence, and should be given a sobriety test.

  • Does this administration ever realize that it is a public entity that
    works for the public that has a right to know what it is up to?
    No one wants the secret nuclear codes the president carries around
    just some straight answers to some simple questions. Is that really
    all that difficult to do?
    Maybe we should start calling this the Black Hole presidency since
    even light is unable to escape from it.

  • If you recall James Watt, the Secretary of the Interior during the Reagan administration, we have all been here before. Watt was convinced the Rapture was coming any minute now so there was no reason to save the wilderness for generations that just won’t be there. What a waste of resources that can be exploited now! The idiocy never ends…

  • Of course I believe in the Rapture:

    “Fast Fly Freddie told me everyone’s style
    D.J. spinning up in my mind
    Flash is fast, Flash is good…”

    I think the Man From Mars is through with cars and eatin’ bars and now he only eats guitars.

    Get up!

  • The White House is trying to create end times. They do not know what to do next… logically. They want their timing to go down right according to the Bible so BushCoInc can produce the Messiah. Don’t ya know Bush wants to be Jesus? He is certainly the man of lawlessness……… The WH is looking for direction .

  • Snow’s “really don’t want to do it,” tells us that he knows, but wont mention it because it would be too embarrassing even for this administration.

    I’m betting on Tim LaHaye now that Pat Robertson has jumped on the Global Warming bahdwagon.

  • “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”

    This quote might come in handy when trying to dissuade rapture freaks from voting. If Jesus himself warned Christians to stay out of political affairs, who are the evangelicals to disobey?

    If the wingnuts really start thinking about that, their heads will explode.

  • Xeno-that one occured to me as well but since they believe Bush is God’s man, doing God’s work, voting for the nasty little man is ‘rendering unto God and Caeser’. One stop shopping. They have a weasel out for every rule.

  • This is just like one time in the 1800’s there was this guy who was a “end of times” preacher and he made a “prediction” that the “end of the world” is coming and will come on this exact day. The day happened and nothing happened and he proclaimed he got it wrong and went home and “did his math” and said another date for the following year and of course nothing happened then either. Right now at my church in the college class we’re studying Revelation and the thing you have to remember about Revelation is a few things: 1) It’s a lot of symbolism and numberology 2) Nothing is literal 3) It’s too vague to make any type of prediction. A lot that happens in the book is of things that have already happened, are happening or will happen. We’ve all seen wars, famine, bad weather etc. It’s just what is common on our planet. People trying to predict the end of the world is silly. I also point to 1 Corinthians chapter five in which as Christian’s you’re told to not worry about the end times and that it will come like a thief in the night and like when a woman has birthing pains and since you are of the light you shouldn’t worry about it since you should already have “things prepared.” The 14,000 thing is just another symbolism ordeal to mean that Christian’s AND Jews will be in Heaven. The twenty-four elders mentioned in Heaven represent the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostoles. According to Christianity anyone who has been faithful to God will be in Heaven. And 666 I have heard theories that it is not a literal physical number but it actually means imperfection since in the time of Revelation was supposivley written seven meant holy and perfect and was known as God’s number. In the NYTimes two week’s ago there was a really good article from a guy who was a reverend saying that churches should stay out of politics and endorsing canidates etc. because when you do that you are becoming a part of the world and could be led down a bad path for yourself as a church. I agree about Snow not wanting to say. They don’t want to be labeled as crazy even though I believe that one is already out there.

  • I wanted to add that I agree with Ed on the point of Bush’s team and this whole thing. They just want more support with their whole Iraq ordeal and still wanting to go into Iran and Syria. Both groups appear to be using each other for their own goals (and I betcha there is a lot of money being made too). Of course to the person about the religious fundies they don’t invite the “religious left” I betcha like Jim Wallis for example. Bush doesn’t care about the enviornment because it’s the family business. In the Bible it does teach you to care for your home because it’s the only one you’ve got. And on the 72 virgins I remember last winter seeing a special from Barbara Walters on Christianity, Judiasm and Islam and one guy who was a teacher of Islam told how the 72 virgin thing was a myth and was from Mohammad. I agree about a need to keep Arabic translators. We need fundie translators too. Heh heh.

  • Man O Man!!!

    I used to watch my mom get taken to the cleaners by those freaks on TV. it just sickens me that these so called men of apolyptic faith have ANY influence on american foreign policy.

    If there was ever a need for divine resurection then there would be 2 men arising from the cave… Bill Hicks and Sam Kinneson!!!

    I surely miss the days of listening to those 2 wise men rage against the self delusional mighty at Rockefeller’s and Comedy Workshop in Houston. ( where, by the way, W was know to inbibe and “rail” his savage sould many a night)

  • And this Rapture fascination among the administration is different from the Third Reich’s preoccupation with the occult just how exactly?

  • “Instead of actually fixing their lives, they hold onto this endtime date where, externally to them, things will change for them and their lives will get better.” – BC

    Actually, I believe the Rapture serves the purpose of making insignificant people feel important. So does young-Earth creationism. You are a lot more significant if God pulls you up to heaven rather than let you die like everybody else EVERY HAS and you are a lot more important if you are living in the one hunderdth generation of humanity rather than the ten thousandth generation.

    My perscription, do something with your life.

  • #37. I’d like to take your thought one step further. If “Rev.” Hagee is right, and the war between Israel and everybody else within spitting distance of the Middle East is inevitable, then the mega-churches should to take down their Voter Registration booths and put up Army Recruiting stations.

  • I would find it disturbing if one percent of this country’s foreign policy is being influenced by these End-Time nut-jobs

    It’s ironic too be at war against Islamic fundamentalism only to have something similar influence our own country.

    The greatest threat to both freedom and sanity is Fundamentalism, regardless of the creed.

  • whether purposely or not, the president’s father and others within the ‘circle’ have been talking for several years about establishing a new world order. you see it being carried out the dissolving of both borders via ‘The Security and Prosperity Partnership’ that the President signed with Viciente Fox and Paul Martin in 2005. You look and Wolfowitz’ promotion (this jackass actually gets a promotion?) to head the World Bank. The Nafta Superhighway, seperation of classes, dumbing down of America’s children with underfunded programs. Military domination over the world, (and especially China in the long term). The flat out open assault on our civil rights in the name of keeping us safe. I honestly believe these assclowns are attempting to create this new world order while they have this chance. Consequently, the book of Daniel describes this new world order.

  • The rapture is a false doctrine[a biblical fornication] of the anti-christ and the phoney preachers[harlots] who preach it are agents of the anti-christ. The term anti christ which source is greek means pretending to be christ not against christ. The congregations[fools] which accept this false doctrine[fornication] are being taught to worship satan which precedes the Christ.As far as the “left behind doctrine” which is fiction, the first one’s taken are actually those who worship the anti-christ. Those “left behind” know of these spiritual dynamics and are to reap the harvest of spiritual truth which comes with the true Christ. It is not necessary to believe this, but this is what the Bible[kjv] states and means.

  • This rapture stuff is creepy.

    I believe in God, and Jesus, but I don’t consider myself a Christian.

    However, I don’t think we’re anywhere close to “the end times”

    In fact. I have a theory that actually is a positive thing IF these are the end times.

    My theory is that linear time will be proven to be a complete sham.

    And besides. If you were God, would you operate on the current time system we have now? If I was God, I wouldn’t even need a clock.

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