Who knew what about waterboarding and when?

I’m hesitant to jump to conclusions, but I think there are a few lawmakers, including some Democratic leaders, who might want to comment on torture-policy briefings they received way back in 2002.

In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA’s overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

“The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough,” said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

The WaPo report is more than a little disconcerting. Leading lawmakers — including Democrats Nancy Pelosi, Jane Harman, Bob Graham, and John Rockefeller — from both parties received “about 30” private CIA briefings, some of which included descriptions of waterboarding “and other harsh interrogation methods.”

Not only did these lawmakers generally fail to raise objections, officials at the briefings “described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support.”

“In fairness, the environment was different then because we were closer to Sept. 11 and people were still in a panic,” said one U.S. official present during the early briefings. “But there was no objecting, no hand-wringing. The attitude was, ‘We don’t care what you do to those guys as long as you get the information you need to protect the American people.’ “

If lawmakers could perhaps elaborate now on what they knew, and when, it’d be very helpful — because it sounds as if they raised concerns about waterboarding after it made headlines in 2005, not before.

I found this response from Jane Harman particularly interesting.

Harman, who replaced Pelosi as the committee’s top Democrat in January 2003, disclosed Friday that she filed a classified letter to the CIA in February of that year as an official protest about the interrogation program. Harman said she had been prevented from publicly discussing the letter or the CIA’s program because of strict rules of secrecy.

“When you serve on intelligence committee you sign a second oath — one of secrecy,” she said. “I was briefed, but the information was closely held to just the Gang of Four. I was not free to disclose anything.”

This has been coming up quite a bit lately. This week, we also learned that Harman received at least some information about the CIA torture tapes, which were subsequently destroyed. But, Harman argues, she wasn’t “free to disclose anything.”

Matt Ygleasis raised a very good point this week in response to this argument.

What members who find themselves in the position Harman says she’s in — and the position that Dick Durbin, Carl Levin, and others found themselves in regarding the 2002 NIE — need to realize is that on some level acquiescence in these kind of abuses winds up legitimizing them. A member who believes he or she is in possession of evidence of crimes being committed and covered-up through illegitimate classification ought to seriously consider civil disobedience: calling a press conference, stating the facts, and accepting responsibility for the consequences. The White House could, of course, then turn around and seek to prosecute a member for violating classification laws, and the member could argue justification and we’d have it out. That’s a tough call to make, clearly. But our political leaders have responsibilities to the country and to the Constitution….

It’s a point I wish more Dems had kept in mind.

Well, now we know why Democratic leaders haven’t pushed this at all. Admittedly I have no training in International Law, but in my mind because they had an oversight responsibility and refused to exercise it this makes Pelosi, Rockefeller, etc. likely war criminals too for condoning violations of the Geneva Conventions. I don’t understand how they could have done this, Democratic leaders may not be as bad as Republicans but their worthlessness seems to make the choice almost irrelevant.

  • I also posted this at FDL;

    “officials at the briefings “described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support.”….“The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough,” said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange…….”at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.”….And So On.

    I can’t help thinking that ANYTHING that involves the WAPO and un-named government sources has to be dodgy, by definition. What else am I supposed to think? Everything else is a lie, so why would I think this isn’t?

  • If there are any lies in the story then the legislators involved need to issue explanatory press releases ASAP because this looks really bad for them.

  • It may be well to bear in mind that in these briefings, the best minds of the Bush administration described waterboarding (and the other techniques) in their own presumably well-chosen words.

    There’s a world of difference between seeing waterboarding with your own eyes (whether a live demonstration or video) and having it described to you.

    There may well be a world of difference between having waterboarding described to you objectively, and having it described to you by the enhanced interrogation apologists of the Bush regime.

    The WaPo piece reads like a smear job to me.

  • This plays out, not merely as a missing piece of the big-picture puzzle, but as a sizable chunk of it.

    Pelosi takes impeachment off the table at the very time when it should have not only been on the table—it should have been the whole blasted table, the chairs, the plates, cups, glasses, saucers, gravy-bowl, turkey platter, and silverware! Impeachment, however, would have led to a high probability that the replacement administration would declassify these “classified” materials, and such would have the inherent potential to expose Pelosi’s “part-&-parcel”enabling of the commission of war crimes.

    The wingnut assault on Speaker Pelosi will commence in 5…..4…..3…………….

  • The WaPo piece reads like GOP stenography. It looks to have
    been rushed into print by the Bush administration to get the Dems
    to back down. That being said it will be interesting to see if Pelosi
    and company have any comment. One thing to remember is that
    any Democrat who reveals information deemed classified by the
    Bush administration will most likely be accused of breaking the law
    and threatening national security. A double standard that the
    Republicans don’t have to worry about. It’s always interesting that
    the Post’s unamed sources only give comments that put Democrats
    in a bad light.

  • Well, nobody’s perfect. The guys they were supposed to be using all the tough techniques on were/are about as bad as a person can get. Sometimes it takes some people watching for you to realize how bad you’re being. I certainly wish more people could be more perfect when they’re not in the situation of having the whole public watching along with them via the newspapers, and I do think a lot of people even fail to live up to their own standards once they find themselves in a situation- they’ll take whatever is available for them to rationalize it into something else instead of objecting, if objecting is off-putting, for some reason- but what do you want from her? Do you want Nancy Pelosi to be better than everyone you know?

    It’s just not like she was stealing public money, or like the alleged terrorists were a bunch of college peace-protestors the CIA just felt frustrated at.

  • I’m not really sticking up for the CIA here, because these are the guys who (as we’ve seen through other evidence that’s been in the media) seem to have kept torturing innocent guys long after they should have figured out they were harmless, (and then basically threw them out into the street instead of compensating them when they did find out), and who murdered people in Abu Ghraib. They don’t seem to care about hurting people who aren’t terrorists to me, they seem more reckless and undisciplined, not like on TV.

    The one I’m sticking up for is Pelosi.

  • “There may well be a world of difference between having waterboarding described to you objectively, and having it described to you by the enhanced interrogation apologists of the Bush regime.”

    LOL — that is some of the best spin I have seen in a long, long while!!!!! You have to be kidding me, sarabeth!

    If the story is true, either the Dems are stupid or they supported the policy… not to mention hypocrytical!!

  • I will defer judgment on this until more information comes out.

    While the idea that 9/11 was still fresh in the minds of the Democrats, could explain their deference to the administration on torture, assuming there was such deference, I think the anthrax attacks on congress may better explain the assumed deference.

    Tinfoil Hat Time. There has never been an arrest in the anthrax attack. Any chance Darth Cheney was behind it as means of cowing congress in to submission?

  • Re 9: You seriously think the CIA would have described waterboarding honestly and accurately in these briefings? Is that the way you think Bushies were behaving back in 2002 and 2003?

  • Here is the last paragraph from the article.

    In a rare public statement last month that broached the subject of his classified objections, Feingold complained about administration claims of congressional support, saying that it was “not the case” that lawmakers briefed on the CIA’s program “have approved it or consented to it.”

    Feingold is typically honest and straighforward, at least by the standards of DC. I wonder then on what information he has based these claims. I think it’s time for Russ to step up and expand on this.

  • You seriously think the CIA would have described waterboarding honestly and accurately in these briefings?

    Sarbeth, waterboarding is waterboarding… I’m not sure how the CIA or the Administration could spin it any other way. “Perhaps the CIA said, “We used Peligrino vs. tap water.”

    If this story is true, it seems like the Dems leadership was for waterboarding before is was against it!

  • You know, it wasn’t until quite recently, when Mukasey was up for AG and the whole issue of whether waterboarding is torture came up, that the “simulation of drowning” myth died a much-needed death. Up to that point, it was always characterized as making the detainee think and feel he was drowning, but what we have learned since then is that it is actual drowning – it’s just ended before the detainee dies from it.

    If the CIA explained waterboarding to these members of Congress as a “simulation,” they were not briefing them as much as they were deceiving them, with the intent to receive their approval, keep them quiet and proceed as planned. The missing tapes, if seem by these same members of Congress, would likely result in statments that what is on the tapes is not what the CIA briefed to them. And along with destroying evidence of crimes, it also destroys evidence that the CIA deceived Congress on its methods and practices.

    I can find no compelling reason to believe what the administration says, what the CIA says, or what all those “unnamed sources” say – but I also am not willing to assume that the Democrats involved in this have spotlessly clean hands.

  • Whether or not the story was a “hatchet job” or “leaked by Republicans” is entirely beside the point. The charges presumably are true since nobody’s screaming otherwise, and what seems more in character and consistent with the overall stance of the recent and current “Democratic leadership”: strong resistance owing to a values-based abhorrence toward torture, or political and moral cowardice that impedes from a moral stand and is informed by the doubt that they could win the ensuing debate?

    They went along and enabled something both stupid (because it doesn’t work; there IS no means/ends agonizing to be done, because you don’t reach the ends) and evil. Whoever votes for or donates to or volunteers for any of these “Democratic leaders,” owe it to themselves to understand this, and maybe they’ll also understand that Democrats have no immunity from stupidity or moral cowardice. Not only do they not share progressive values on some core issues, they’re willing to trample those values in return for political self-preservation.

    Boiled down, they rarely deserve the benefit of the doubt.

  • It’s a matter of degree isn’t it. I mean if they had started beheading suspects family members, slicing up infants an children in front of them as a means to make them talk, these committee members would then have made a decision to stand up for what was right and publicly condemn such horrific actions, right?

    In the face of downright criminal activity are these committee members saying they should uphold their oath of secrecy above their oath to defend and protect the constitution and constitutional rights?

    At what point does common human decency take power over being held to secrecy about inhuman, immoral activity on the part of our government?

    I doubt “states secrets” was ever intended to hide immoral, inhuman, criminal activity.
    Why would something like this need to be kept secret?…only because if known it would not have been allowed and these people knew that. They used oath of secrecy to hide their cowardice.

    The people should have known about this immediately. If they had known it would have been stopped. That’s why the secrecy…so they could be allowed to continue doing it. What National security risk was involved here that this needed to be kept secret. “Sssh…we are torturing suspects…don’t tell anybody… because if you do then……………… (please, help me fill in the blank) which would be a risk to national security.”

  • Re 13 and 14:

    1) Thanks, Anne.

    2) JRS Jr: We may know today what waterboarding is, but the point is that we didn’t know back in 2002 or 2003. Chances are the people who received the briefings didn’t know either. And, yes, they could have researched it themselves and looked it up. But if it was made to sound pretty innocuous, they may not have realized there was any need to do so.

    3) I have $20 that says that if we ever learn how waterboarding was described in these briefings, we’ll find that the word “drowning” was never used at all. That they never even described it as simulated drowning. Probably something as bland as “putting a cloth over detainee’s face and pouring water over it”. Before you start trotting out the sarcasm for me, and the long knives for the Democrats: “Would that have raised a red flag for you?”

    And, just to be clear, all I’m saying is:
    — It could have played out like this.
    If it did, the WaPo story is an irresponsible hit-piece.

  • Anne, I had never heard the point made that waterboarding does not simulate drowning rather it is drowning. I decided to find out what could about that since you didn’t give us a link. What found was a site which does an excellent job in describing the technique in very plain language.

    Inhaled liquid is an immediate, life-threatening situation. It’ll kill you faster than third degree burns, faster than a lost eye or a lost limb. If you’ve ever inhaled water you know that even the smallest amount of liquid in the larynx and trachea is an immediate, hardwired hotline directly to the panic portion of the brain that death is imminent. Survivors of near-drowning experiences report that the sensation of water flooding down the larynx and trachea as they struggle to breathe is the most terrifying aspect of the experience. Waterboarding does not “simulate” this experience, it re-creates this experience.

    It is not however drowning. The lungs are elevated above the head which keeps water out of them and prevents drowning. On can though asphyxiate from waterboarding, because it keeps oxygen out the lungs.

    Go take a look at the site, it does the best job I’ve seen of explaining both the technical and legal aspects of this heinous procedure.

  • I think it is exceedingly STRANGE that such a hullaballoo is being made about who knew what about waterboarding and when, as though those missing tapes would have been the very first proof everybody was waiting for. It just doesn’t make sense to me, when reports like the ABC report below have been common.

    November 9, 2005 – Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier’s severe punishment.

    “The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army,” recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

    Earlier in 1901, the United States had taken a similar stand against water boarding during the Spanish-American War when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for water boarding an insurgent in the Philippines.

    “Even when you’re fighting against belligerents who don’t respect the laws of war, we are obliged to hold the laws of war,” said Rejali. “And water torture is torture.”

    This morning, Goss insisted that the CIA and its officers are not breaking U.S. law.

    “We do debriefings because debriefings are the nature of our business — to get information, and we do all that, and we do it in a way that does not involve torture because torture is counterproductive,” Goss said.

    The CIA maintains its interrogation techniques are in legal guidance with the Justice Department. And current and former CIA officers tell ABC News there is a presidential finding, signed in 2002, by President Bush, Condoleezza Rice and then-Attorney General John Ashcroft approving the techniques, including water boarding. http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1356870

    Were the tapes actually needed for proof that the CIA conducts waterboarding? Why not just subpoena Bush’s “presidential finding” for proof? And prosecute the lot of them.

  • This is the earliest reference I can find which says that waterboarding is not simulated drowning, but drowning itself: a letter to the editor of the Lawrence World-Journal on Nov. 11, 2007.

    I think the idea entered the public consciousness only via a HuffPo piece on Nov. 27 by Representatives Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) and William Delahunt (D-MA).

  • Anney, Abu Ghraib wasn’t much of a scandal till the photographs surfaced. (Till then the military had successfully buried it with a couple of low-key back-burner “investigations”.)

    If these tapes had ever surfaced on American (and international) TV, the impact would have been HUGE. Right now, the average American is really not very exercised over waterboarding. The tapes could have ignited outrage to dwarf what we witnessed over Abu Ghraib.

  • rege – here is part of an article written by Malcom Nance, who testified to the Senate Judiciary Committee on the subject of waterboarding:

    Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

    Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

    Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.

    The link is here: http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

    And in case someone is not familiar with Nance, here is is bio info:

    Malcolm W. Nance is a counter-terrorism and terrorism intelligence consultant for the U.S. government’s Special Operations, Homeland Security and Intelligence agencies. A 20-year veteran of the US intelligence community’s Combating Terrorism program and a six year veteran of the Global War on Terrorism he has extensive field and combat experience as an field intelligence collections operator, an Arabic speaking interrogator and a master Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) instructor.

    Not to take issue with the info you found, but the person who sponsors waterboarding.org is no expert. And, think about something for a moment. If your mouth is covered and the only way you can get air is through your nose, and water is filling it, you are going to draw water into your lungs, because when you feel like you are drowning, your instinct is to try to get air into your lungs. The only way water does not get into the lungs in this procedure is if, from the moment water starts filling the nasal passages, the detainee makes no attempt to breathe. In a panicked situation, I cannot imagine that anyone could so control their fear that they could do that.

  • sarabeth

    Yes, those tapes, if seen by America might have ratcheted up the protests, but there’s certainly no guarantee we would have seen them.

    Do you recall that there were MORE pictures and tapes of the Abu Ghraib torture that America wasn’t allowed to see because they were “too upsetting”? But Congress saw them, and I think they’re the ones with the screams of children who were being sodomized.

    And what did Congress do?

    Well, they passed the McCain anti-torture bill that Bush immediately castrated. And then they dusted off their hands and closed the shop.

    My point is that we have been barraged with information about the torture authorized by the Bush administration for years (waterboarding is only one of many methods the CIA has used), and Congress hasn’t brought out any big guns to stop the administration. I don’t think the American people can be any more outraged than they are already about torture or Bush’s illegal actions. We don’t need any more citizen outrage, since it’s pretty much ignored. We need Congressional outrage and strong action.

    I think Congress will just let this tape-destruction gurgle down the drain, too, in terms of actually doing anything to stop the torture. Maybe they’ll have investigations about who, when, where, and how the tapes were known about and destroyed, but to what end? While the tape-destruction is an illegal secondary cover-up, the central and primary crime is torture. I am weary of so much evidence of this administration’s wrong-doing and crime when Congress responds about coverups but refuses to shoot the crime itself out of the water.

  • Re 24: Anney, my point is only that if the tapes exist, there is some possibility they will be leaked, and seen by America (rather than Congress), and stuff will really hit the fan. Destroying them certainly guarantees they will never be seen by America.

    Re: 23: Anne, waterboarding.org actually does say that water is drawn into the lungs:

    The chest and lungs are kept higher than the head so that coughing draws water up and into the lungs while avoiding total suffocation.
    […]
    Waterboarding is actually forcing large quantities of water into the pharynx, trachea, and lungs, inducing choking and gagging in the subject.

  • sarabeth – rege’s comment kind of says two things – that water is drawn into the lungs and water is kept out of the lungs; it can’t be both; I suppose my point was that one does not have to die to experience drowning.

    Those who were briefed have been strangely silent on the whole thing, other than to say, yes, we were briefed, but we can’t tell you what we were told.

    It more or less reinforces my growing suspicion that one reason there has been little or no effort to move ahead with impeachment or something lesser in the way of holding the administration accountable for its actions is that the the Dems’ hands are far from clean. It may be that their complicity was obtained by less than honest methods designed to ensure their silence, but their refusal to put their own freedom at risk to stop what they surely must have known were crimes may have also cost American lives.

    I’m pretty much disgusted with the lot of them.

  • Re 26: I was only pointing out that the contradiction (that water is drawn into the lungs and water is kept out of the lungs) was in rege’s comment, not waterboarding.org.

  • What a thoroughly excellent and intelligent commentary. And on a related issue, I have a question:
    Doesn’t it seem possible the CIA tapes were destroyed because ‘names were named’ and – as Bush boasted in his State of the Union message – “those people aren’t around to bother us anymore.”
    It’s one thing to get Zubayda to name those responsible for 9/11 by waterboarding him.
    It’s probably not unexpected that 4 of the 5 people named are (somehow or other) dead.
    Other countries (and we terrified Americans) could hardly object to that, as long as we didn’t know about it.
    But when W. in effect brags, on television to the world, that we’ve killed those responsible, the tapes had to be destroyed because they linked Bush to the naming of those assassinated.
    That’s a war crime.
    I’m not sure even Pelosi could take that one off the table.

  • Comments are closed.