Who’s in charge here?

ABC News reported this week that a group of so-called “Principals” — including Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, CIA Director George Tenet, Attorney General John Ashcroft, and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice — met dozens of times in the White House to “discuss and approve” specific interrogation techniques to be used against suspected terrorists.

The AP moved the ball forward on this story today.

Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned.

The officials also took care to insulate President Bush from a series of meetings where CIA interrogation methods, including waterboarding, which simulates drowning, were discussed and ultimately approved.

Those are actually two very interesting sentences. The first noted that Cheney & Co. asked Justice to “endorse the legality” of the interrogation techniques they’d decided to use. That seems backwards — the “Principals” should have sought legal parameters from the Justice Department about what was and was not permissible under the law. Directing administration attorneys to sign off on torture techniques is, shall we say, problematic.

The second noted that Bush was “insulated.” It’s quite a concept. I’m trying to imagine the president walking through his White House asking his chief of staff, “Hmm. Dick, Rummy, Colin, Tenet, Ashcroft, and Condi are all huddled together. What’s that all about?” Only to hear in response, “Don’t worry about it.”

It’s vaguely reminiscent of the “out of the loop” defense utilized during the Iran-Contra scandal. Everyone around the president was engaged in criminal behavior, but we need not blame the president directly because he had no idea what was going on and no clue what the top members of his White House team were doing.

How reassuring.

The AP added to the ABC report, inasmuch as it highlighted how the DoJ’s torture memos might relate to the interrogation decisions made by the “Principals.”

Between 2002 and 2003, the Justice Department issued several memos from its Office of Legal Counsel that justified using the interrogation tactics, including ones that critics call torture.

“If you looked at the timing of the meetings and the memos you’d see a correlation,” the former intelligence official said. Those who attended the dozens of meetings agreed that “there’d need to be a legal opinion on the legality of these tactics” before using them on al-Qaida detainees, the former official said. […]

“No one at the agency wanted to operate under a notion of winks and nods and assumptions that everyone understood what was being talked about,” said a second former senior intelligence official. “People wanted to be assured that everything that was conducted was understood and approved by the folks in the chain of command.”

As ACLU Legislative Director Caroline Fredrickson said, “With each new revelation, it is beginning to look like the torture operation was managed and directed out of the White House. This is what we suspected all along.”

Hello! Everyone knows that DICK “Benedict Arnold” Cheney runs the White House, he always has.

  • When I was young, we learned how wonderful our Constitution is because it is so flexible. But that was a different era.

    I suspect the most frequently asked by Bush is still, “Do I want to know?”

  • So they STILL want to claim that what they were doing was above-board (pun intended) and legal?

    About the only reason I can think of to keep the President out of the loop would be if, say, you were planning something patently illegal…

    War Crimes Tribunal, anyone? Now the bastards are just about openly admitting it…

  • There’s only one way to find out the truth — waterboard the lot of them.

    I have it on good authority that this method of interrogation is both wholly constitutional and perfectly harmless.

  • I hate all the coy little euphemisms people throw around while trying to justify evil behavior. “Harsh interrogation techniques” = methods of TORTURE. You know, like the Inquisition used.

    And TR, that’s a great idea.

  • It’s vaguely reminiscent of the “out of the loop” defense utilized during the Iran-Contra scandal. Everyone around the president was engaged in criminal behavior, but we need not blame the president directly because he had no idea what was going on and no clue what the top members of his White House team were doing

    Like father, like son. GB used the out of the loop excuse when he was VP during the Iran-Contra scandal, and Mr Integrity Colin Powell lied to Congress to cover the senior Bush’s ass.

    oh yeah, and what Stacy6 said.

  • Remember that time a few years back when George thought he was actually in charge. He snubbed all of Daddy Bush Sr.’s advisors and it was the talk of the town? Then something mysterious happened in Cheney’s man sized vault and the balance of power was “restored” back to the sole hands of Cheney. Daddy Bush Sr. convenienly faded off in the background again, not even appearing in any more awkardly spaced commercials with Bill Clinton.

    VP Cheney runs the country.
    President Bush dances with the natives and does the photo op goodwill type tours.

    Remember when it used to be the other way around?

  • Bush is usually out of the loop.

    Remember order approving the disbanding of the iraki army? Bush doesn’t remember either.

    But while Bush may be out of the loop. He is still Responsible.

  • You left out another good part:

    “At times, CIA officers would demonstrate some of the tactics, or at least detail how they worked, to make sure the small group of “principals” fully understood what the al-Qaida detainees would undergo.”

    There’s a hot new underground S&M club in Washington, DC. It’s called the Situation Room.

    If this follows the usual arc of scandal, it will metastasize over the next few days. Watch for Friday afternoon and Saturday dumps. I’m still wondering who and what Congress knew about all this.

    Bush is already on record as having committed felonies with the illegal domestic wiretapping, but that is our own little domestic squabble. Authorizing and directing torture like this, even having it demonstrated in front of you, now we are into international treaty violations. There is a significant list of tyrants and despots in recent history condemned and removed from power because of crap like this. This administration has nine months left on the clock. There is a second clock ticking that counts down the limits of patience other countries have for these antics. They will start calling us on this BS eventually.

    George Walker Bush insulated? Please! Those CIA interrogators at Bagram, Diego Garcia, and Guantanamo did not go into those rooms with just Dick Cheney’s signature backing them up. Saying Bush was insulated is the same nonsense Russian peasants believed about Stalin. It wasn’t him, it was lieutenants like Beria, Yezhov, Voroshilov, ad nauseum, who committed the crimes. If only Stalin knew, he had our best interests at heart. The Bush Administration: the best Bolsheviks ever created on American soil.

    “Former senior intelligence official”…hmmm, start with Tenet, then his deputies, and work your way out. Is he or she a patriot, seeking revenge, or trying to stay out of jail? Five years too late, I’m afraid I’m all out of slack.

  • The “insulated” argument doesn’t work. Dubya is chairman of the NSA ~~ he is required to sign off on everything these people do. In fact, there’s a pdf of a doc on the Great Orange Satan as I write this with GW’s siggy explicitly authorizing torture.

  • Who’s in charge here?

    Cheney. The real leader was at these meetings, and everyone there knew it. It wouldn’t surprise me if minutes eventually emerge showing Addington chairing the meetings rather than Rice (as we have been told so far).

  • As Jonathan Turley (do I have that right?) pointed out on Olbermann last night, Bush’s crimes are no secret. The problem is that there is nobody around who cares enough to do anything about them. What struck me was that after he said that, Keith Olbermann didn’t care enough to pursue this issue – that is, what’s wrong with this country and why doesn’t anybody care and what can we do about it? Instead, Olbermann signed off the segment and acted as if Turley had just reported the baseball scores.

    Look at the reaction to the Chinese/Tibet issue. Why aren’t these same people as outraged over the illegal invasion and destruction of Iraq? That’s a billion times worse than the Tibet crisis.

    Or Hillary’s “lie” about Bosnia, versus Bush’s lies to get us into Iraq.

    It’s completely baffling. Nobody cares what Bush does or has done.

    It’s the same thing we’ve been seeing ad nauseum for seven years: revelation after revelation, followed by some tongue lashing by a few prominent Democrats, followed by . . . nothing.

    Nothing will ever be done about Bush’s crimes. Nothing.

  • The first sentence from the AP quote caught my eye:

    Between 2002 and 2003, the Justice Department issued several memos from its Office of Legal Counsel that justified using the interrogation tactics, including ones that critics call torture.

    I guess we should consider Reagan and the U.S. Senate critics of these methods? The “Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment” was signed by Reagan in ’88 and ratified by the Senate in ’94. A Republican President and a Republican-controlled Senate. The irony would be delicious if it weren’t so sad…

  • There is a way to get to the bottom of all this: begin Impeachment hearings.

    It’s not going to happen. “We don’t have the votes, yadda, yadda, yadda” … how many votes does it take to hold hearings?!

    The reason it’s not going to happen is that the Administration showed Pelosi the torture films and she failed to report that war crime at the time, so she’s an accomplice and her ass is in the same sling as these slugs.

    What saps we Democrats are. The only people who tell the truth anymore are the comedians.

  • Here are some out of the loop moments….

    Disbanding the Iraqi Army – Vice Roy of Iraq Bremer decides to disband the Army. Bush was out of the loop. (bremer disagrees with assessment).

    A small plane violates Captial District airspace in DC, the Capitol Building is evacuated, the TV news shows people running around DC frantically. The president is mountain biking in Maryland – Shrub not informed about this secuirty threat because there was no need to inform him – he was out of the loop.

    Katrina Response – Not his fault because he was out of the loop.

    Someone at the Whitehouse rats out the secret identity of a Spy in a time of war to discredit a critic – Bush not in that loop either.

    VP shoots a guy in the face and decides he does not need to inform the President or the Public – This is decision is OK because POTUS is out of the loop anyway.

    Firing all the US Attorney’s that won’t play ball. Bush was out of that loop to.

  • How is the pain inflicted by “simulated” drowning (leaving aside the fact that this euphemism is wildly misleading) different from that caused by “organ failure?” It seems to me that even by this egregiously exclusive definition of torture, waterboarding would be included.

  • Bush Cheney et al should be tried as war criminals for what they have done. No amnesty to be kind!. It is up to Americans to ensure our elected officials are held accountable for their actions. Ashcroft’s statement “History will not be kind… reveals Mr. Ashcroft knew laws were being broke should have stopped this executive order of torture from the beginning. Mr. Ashcroft should be disbarred along with his other cronies in crime.Instead Mr. Ashcroft was paid off with another very lucrative business of deception of America in hiding the crinminality of big corporations

    It was very sad to me when Mr.Turkul (sp?) on Keith Obermann last night said he doubts Congrss will do anything about this heinous business. It is difficult to impeach Cheney /Bush when the Attorney General, Mukassy is wallowing in lies and deceits and purulence to appease the Bush /Cheney Manipulative machine of destruction of America.

    This is what Congress should be focused on right now. The Republicans should be running away from their beloved Caommander in -thief to protect themselves., not rallying around to get paid off to be quiet about the highest in the country breaking laws.

    As for Bush and his father;s scandal. Like father Like son

  • hark #14, i think this is yet another benefit Bush receives from low expectations. no one is outraged because, well, in fact most of us saw this coming when he was appointed in 2000, and those who didn’t see it then certainly did in 2004, but felt some crazy need to re-elect him in “wartime” anyway.

    That said, I think the cure is what Ed said at #16. I opposed impeachment for a long long time, but now I just have trouble seeing how one avoids impeaching Bush even if one wants to avoid it. I’m not sure what more Bush could do to all but beg for it.

    I know what Pelosi has said before, but in some ways it makes her perfectly situated.

    “Look, I didn’t want to do this. I understand the strain this puts on our system, and I understand the public didn’t like it in the 90s. So I hoped that Bush would get the message from the voters in 2006. And I hoped that Democrats in Congress could focus on moving the country forward and force Bush to change his ways. But all that Americans and their representatives in Congress have gotten is more bad news, more incompetence, more cronyism and most disappointing of all, revalations of outright criminal behavior. No matter how difficult and unpleasant impeachment may be, the law cannot just be ignored because it is inconvenient — that goes for Mr. Bush and his administration, but it also goes for Congress and its Constitutional duty to be a check on that administration. And sadly I conclude that the crimes and failures and scandals of this administration can no longer be ignored, particularly the latest news that Bush is not actually at the helm for decisions of major moral and policy importance. . . [use as jumping off point to highlight the long sordid list of high crimes and misdemeanors]”

  • This is another chance for Mukasey to step forward and to protect the Consitutional integrity of this nation – that this is a nation of laws and no person is above the law. But something tells me he is unlikely to fulfill this obligation.

    We used to believe that our system of government was pretty much immune to dictatorial leaders because our institions of laws and justice create too many obstacles. How scary to realize how fragile this union really is!

  • Works out nicely. The president is out of the loop, so he cant be charged and he pardons everyone else; just the way the founding fathers intended.

  • Nice to see all the evidence coming out for the war crimes trials we’ll b e holding next year.

    Maybe Cheney will cheat the hangman with a fatal heart attack as the FBI is walking up the steps to his front door to arrest him.

  • Malcolm [21]: I was headed there myself. Hitler was kept out of meetings regarding the “Final Solution” to keep him insulated as well. And sure, sure, it’s “obviously not as bad (of course)”. But we are still talking about the mistreatment and torture of human beings, their open-ended incarceration without the presentation of evidence against them, and the ruining of countless innocent human lives — all perpetrated in secret, often based upon lies and hoaxes, and covered up with herculean effort.

    Label the principals as war criminals. Chant for tribunals. Storm the White House with torches and pitchforks. But, these wretched, evil, diabolical people will walk away with sacks of money, book deals, speaking engagements and unrelenting power, all paid for by the toil of future taxpayers and with the blood of nameless brown people whose only mistake was living meagerly and anonymously in a part of the world conveniently situated on top of the earth’s last great deposit of fossil fuels.

    How very high we hoist our flag! And how very low our leaders have sunk us as a nation!

  • Repeat after me, boys and girls:

    there is no LOOP.

    There is only BUBBLE.

    Bu$h is in the BUBBLE, because Bu$h “IS” the BUBBLE.

    “…and in other news, the Labor Department reported a record-breaking drop in jobless claims this week, due to the developing demand in the construction industry for building prisons, execution gallows, and brick walls for use by firing squads….”

  • @ Chrenson (25)

    It’s sure in the same ballpark. I included the “not as bad” comment because even though there is a certain moral equivalence between the two, I didn’t want the conversation going off-topic with people accusing me of trying to demonize the administration by comparing their actions to the murder of millions of people.

    But that being said… yes, there is a moral equivalence.

    The strength of the United States has always been that our philosophy is superior to many of the other nations of the world.

    You don’t protect your house from being robbed by burning it down, and you don’t protect America by destroying everything that America stands for.

    Those who claim that “the ends justify the means” have totally missed the concepts that this country is supposed to be based on.

    Those who see the Constitution as an inconvenience that can be ignored do far more damage to the country than many of those we attack abroad.

    I remember reading (about 20 years ago) that the goal of terrorism is not the defeat of your enemy. The true purpose is to force your enemy to so over-react that their citizens can’t tolerate the restrictions imposed on them; which destroys your enemy from within.

    The funny thing in this story is the fact that of all the people in these meetings, it was Ashcroft who stepped up to the plate and mentioned that these things shouldn’t be discussed in the white house.

    Who could have imagined.

  • Yea, but Ashcroft;s problem, from his statement, wasn’t that these things shouldn’t be discussed by those people, but rather they shouldn’t be discussed by those people in the White House.

    Nancy could draw out thse impeachment hearings for most of the next 9 months, there has been so many high crimes and misdemeanors from every level and department of the executive branch, that it would never actually have to make it to the senate for the trials before the elections. And even if the Senate voted not-guily for impeachment, there will be plenty of new USA’s appointed by the new administration, that they can pick up with the investigations and take them to grand juries. The good thing about impeachment is 1, no pardons can be issued before or during. And 2 people can still be impeached after they leave office. Which would stop a slew of these younger folks from ever working in government again. And since that didn’t happen during Watergate, or Iran Contra why we ended up with the same bastards 20-30 years later acting even with greater illegality and impunity.

    That said, I think Nancy does nothing because they’ve either got her on something with warantless wiretaps, or she is also guilty of war crimes.

    But am I the only one that is a bit paranoid with all this stuff coming out in dribs and drabs that they aren’t terrified that the damn will break when a new Democratic President takes over the Executive branch and no one will be able to ignore the flood any more? Are they really going to let us have our elections? Are they really going to allow a Dem to take office?

  • The whole point is that they are not just “wrong”, like our nice little democrats in congress like to say. THEY ARE CRIMINALS! Whether they are ever tried or convicted, is what is in question. The illegality of what was (and is) done is NOT in question.

  • Maybe the ball will start rolling when all the “bad apples” who were convicted over torturing prisoners and claimed that the orders came from on high, start suing for the obviously false testimony at their hearings…

    Please, please, please…

  • “a group of so-called ‘Principals’ … met dozens of times in the White House to ‘discuss and approve’ specific interrogation techniques to be used against suspected terrorists.”

    Does that strike anyone else as really effing odd? Why would a group of the most powerful people in the US government have to meet dozens of times to discuss interrogation? Dozens means they would have met at least 24 times to micromanage his detail to death. Folks this high up the command chain don’t spend that much time on small details of a “war on terror” unless the torture question was of some extraordinary strategic value to them.

    Since it is very widely known that the more extreme the threat of pain and suffering during an interrogation the less likely the confessions gleaned will be truthful, I have a little theory about this: these guys knew they had no rationale for their ideas of Middle East conquest and needed something, anything (including coerced falsehoods) as their alibi for bombing who they wanted to bomb. There are only so many Curveballs out there, and tortured admissions to what these “suspected terrorists” were told to confess to would give them the proof they needed to have their way with the world.

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