Who’s the Democratic ‘establishment candidate’?

No one ever wants to be labeled the “establishment candidate,” especially on the Democratic side of the aisle. The phrase just reeks of stale, dull detachment. “Insurgent candidates” are exciting and lead movements of motivated activists; “establishment candidates” are safe but lackluster, more likely to curry favor with lobbyists than liberals. “Insurgent candidates” want to shake up the status quo; “establishment candidates” prefer not to rock the boat.

Last week, I heard some grumbling from Hillary Clinton supporters that Barack Obama, after picking up endorsements from Ted Kennedy and John Kerry, should be labeled an “establishment candidate.” It struck me as kind of silly, but apparently, the Clinton campaign itself starting pushing the idea on a conference call this morning.

…Hillary pollster Mark Penn repeatedly said Obama was becoming an “establishment candidate” — a rather strained effort to use Obama’s high-profile endorsements to weaken his insurgent appeal.

Asked about Obama’s loss in Massachusetts despite the Teddy Kennedy endorsement, Penn again reiterated the fact that voters making up their minds on the last day had broken for Hillary, suggesting (without quite saying) that this was somehow catalyzed by Obama’s new high-profile support.

“The more that Senator Obama has shifted to becoming an establishment campaign based on endorsements, people said, `You know, it’s really Senator Clinton who has the ideas for change,'” Penn told reporters.

Indeed, Penn suggested Obama would have done even better in Super Tuesday contests, were it not for the notion that voters rejected his “increasingly establishment-oriented campaign.”

I understand why the Clinton campaign would give this message a shot, but I’m skeptical that anyone is going to take it seriously.

Sure, Obama has picked up some high-profile congressional endorsements, but the truth is, Clinton has the support of 90 sitting members of Congress, while Obama has 63. (Obama’s backers seem to support him despite his role as an “insurgent candidate.”)

When it comes to superdelegates, all of whom are Democratic insiders, Clinton also enjoys more support than Obama.

But numbers aside, this spin turns everything we’ve seen the last year on its ear. Obama is, and has always been, the “insurgent candidate.” He’s followed in the Bill Bradley/Gary Hart footsteps of outsiders challenging the establishment. Indeed, by some measurements, Obama is the most successful insurgent candidate in a generation.

Clinton, on the other hand, has not only played the role of “establishment candidate,” she’s practically an incumbent. To be sure, Clinton is not your usual establishment figure — her policy ideas certainly reflect a candidate who’s willing to shake up the status quo — but she’s hardly the gatecrasher. Consider some of her top surrogates utilized earlier this year — Bill Clinton (President in the ’90s), Madeline Albright (Secretary of State in the ’90s), Wesley Clark (NATO commander in the ’90s), and Dick Gephardt (Democratic House Leader in the ’90s). Hardly the stuff of an outsider.

Put it this way: is anyone really prepared to characterize Hillary Clinton as the “insurgent candidate”? It seems like a stretch.

I understand why the Clinton campaign would give this message a shot, but I’m skeptical that anyone is going to take it seriously.

Indeed, it’s bullshit. Call ’em like you see ’em!

  • Can we be a little less stupid?

    Nope, apparantly not.

    Any chance we could have a candidate who is supported by the WHOLE Democratic party.

    They are not that far apart, you know.

    Circular firing squads anyone?

  • This isn’t going to fly with anyone. Hillary, both from the facts on the ground, and her essential personality, reeks of the establishment – though not all find it an unpleasant reek. There is a comforting, safe side to it too. I like an earlier poster’s comparison of Hillary to a familiar chain restaurant that you eat at habitually.

    But this is just a stupid move. It just encourages Obama’s message that “she’ll say anything”.

  • Obama is the most successful insurgent candidate in a generation.

    And that of course explains the desperation of the establishment. If Obama wasn’t being so successful, if so many DFHs weren’t backing him, they would be glad to tell us again how much “experience” and backing from the establishment their candidate has.

    As it stands they’re trying to fool millions of people who are tired of being fooled.

  • Easy to swat down by the O campaign:

    “Hillary Clinton said that?”

    Though if it’s a Faux News reporter asking, they might have to add:

    “Isn’t she married to a former president?”

  • Obama was handpicked by Kennedy to run against Hillary. The old boys club isnt ready for a woman.

  • Hillary’s running on the promise of a third Clinton Term. By definition her campaign can not be an insurgent campaign.

  • Hillary’s running on the promise of a third Clinton Term. By definition her campaign can not be an insurgent campaign.

  • Put it this way: is anyone really prepared to characterize Hillary Clinton as the “insurgent candidate”?

    Oh, she’ll find some surrogate to say that.

    Look, it’s harmless compared to the nasty pre-South Carolina stuff

  • Hillary pollster Mark Penn repeatedly said Obama was becoming an “establishment candidate” — a rather strained effort to use Obama’s high-profile endorsements to weaken his insurgent appeal.

    The worm is turning.

  • If you want to know who the establishment candidate is, ask yourself, who is David Broder rooting for?

    It’s not Hillary. She mucks up the place, and God bless her for it.

  • …is anyone really prepared to characterize Hillary Clinton as the “insurgent candidate?

    No.

    Senator Clinton benefits primarily from her proximity to the former president and her name. If she wasn’t married to a popular former president, but instead, had to run exclusively on her experience and record in the Senate, I dare say, she wouldn’t be where she is today.

  • Spin is only effective when it reinforces or colors an already sensible impression. But nobody believes Obama is an establishment candidate and nobody believe Clinton is an insurgent candidate. So this spin strikes me as a ridiculous and I am quite certain it will ultimately prove inneffective. It might even become a source of ridicule. And no campaign wants to be ridiculed.

  • I think the media/DC establishment still clings to their Clinton hating of yesteryear, as Obama supporters do, and from the way Obama keeps trying to rewrite history with a fondness of Reagan and degredation of Clinton shows me Obama’s more beholden to the failed “centrist” DLC tendencies of the past. He’s not creating a new politics, but attempting to ride old hatreds.

    The establishment HATES anything Clinton, and are terrified of them returning. They can’t stomach the thought. If this primary were decided by those inside the bubble, it would come out Obama aroun 6:1.

  • This is, frankly, silly.

    John Edwards was the “insurgent candidate”, though even speaking as a supporter, he wasn’t exactly rocking the boat very hard. Some of the other candidates could have made for a real insurgency, but Dem voters this year weren’t looking for insurgency – they’re mad at the GOP this time around, not their own party (for a bit of a change).

    Clinton was the “well, she’s going to win anyway so let’s rally round her” establishment candidate. Plus she’s the candidate for the part of the establishment that did very well under the previous Clinton administration.

    Obama is the “damn – I’d hate to go through another Clinton White House” establishment candidate – the folks who either didn’t like Clinton part I and/or the folks who didn’t see their fortunes improve under Bill. Plus there’s the pull of the “new blood/fresh ideas” rhetoric that even the Dem elites aren’t immune to.

    The idea that one of the two candidates – who are both sitting Senators, who are roughly splitting the high-level “establishment” endorsements, and whose platforms are so similar that you need to pick nits to find distinctions between them – the idea that they can’t both be “establishment” candidates is not only silly, but kinda insulting to the intelligence. The “insurgent” candidates have been weeded out already, unless the word “insurgent” is a descriptor that applies purely to the horserace of who wins the nomination. In which case it’s a useless label and should be discarded anyway.

    We’ve been presented with a number of choices and the Dem voters have picked the two that the establishment of the party would also be perfectly happy with. There are factions backing one or the other, but it’s not like the Dem elites are a monolithic bloc that always thinks the same way. Why the hell should the Dem establishment be united? The rest of the damn party never has been.

    You want to see an insurgent candidacy? Look at John McCain. Or Mike Huckabee. Those are insurgencies. What we’re seeing on the Dem side is a mostly collegial disagreement about which face gets to be the party’s agreed positions.

  • Mark Penn, professional putz, a pinstriped pimp in a sbiny suit. The very best reason of all to keep Hillary Clinton as far from the White House as you can, and let her still be on the same planet.

    The Clintons were happy to be the “establishment candidate” when it meant she was “inevitable.” Now that the only thing that’s inevitable is that more people are discovering that the Empress is out and about without clothes, they want to change the rules. Just like they changed the rules about Michigan and Florida delegates, like they want to change the rules about DNC-sponsored debates. The Clintons will do anything to win. That is not necessarily a good thing.

    Their desperation is becoming more obvious and pathetic the longer they’re out an about. The Hillarybots are getting tiresome as they repeat the mantra “ready on day one.”

    Myself, I prefer “right on day one,” and hiring Mark Penn to do anything other than clean toilets (with inspections afterward to be sure he did it right) is as far from being “right” as one can get.

  • Steve:

    At Talk Left and Jane at Firedoglake are peddling this ridiculous idea. Seems that the objectivity is being lost as we speak. For anyone to suggest that Obama is the establishment candidate is bordering on the insane. Funny to see the fallout on this as all of the pro Hillary people are running around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to find any reason to discredit his performance last night. She should have put him away and couldn’t. Now with the money and the momentum, he should pull further ahead in the delegate count with the contests left this month. Sour freaking grapes, I say.

  • “But nobody believes Obama is an establishment candidate..:”

    BS. I’ve thought they were both establishment candidates from the beginning. You can’t be an insurgent and get the money and endorsements that Obama has.

    It would be laughable to think of Hillary as the insurgent candidate, but it’s a given Obama is an establishment candidate.

    They both are. So what? Until a nominee is selected both sides will nitpik and try any labeling they can to give themselves an edge. And they should. They are 2 very skilled, establishment politicians.

    We all know Hillary is. If you don’t think Obama is, you’re kidding yourself. Ask yourself if he could have got this far without his establishment money and endorsements.

  • Time to Turn the Page on the Stank of Clinton. That Soap Opera is old and tired. Good will prevail over Evil this summer, and we will finally have a president we can have pride in, not shame.

    Are people still voting for Hillary these days? Why? Obama is a candidate we can have pride in, why would somebody want to return to the Clinton Soap Opera?

  • Somehow, Hillary strikes me as the establishment Democratic candidate. Her connections to the “centrist” corporate Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) are numerous… In a side note, Dennis Kucinich is definitely not a corporate candidate; our lovely corporate San Francisco Chronicle could not be bothered to report the number of primary election votes for Dennis Kucinich or John Edwards. The Chron just lumped them into “other.” That’s was happens to progressive candidates, i. e., non-corporate candidates. I had to buy a Sacramento Bee this morning to find out how many votes that Dennis Kucinich and John Edwards received…

  • WWDBC?(Who Would David Broder Choose)

    Obama, hands down.

    There’s your establishment candidate.

    Hillary’s coming to muck up the place again, and bring back the surpluses paid for in the careers of the Dems who voted for it. Heroes, all.

  • Observers are saying that the Massachusettes result 56 to 41 for Clinton, proves Penn’s remarks but Mathew Yglesias’s graph on Massachusettes shows the Kennedy endorsements just over a week before, if anything seemed to have a positive impact contributing to Obama ‘s surge which just seemed to run out of time in Massachusettes..

    If he’d had another two weeks to campaign, maybe he would have closed the gap. Or maybe not. Certainly if he’d had more time to build on the endorsements in order to construct an actual Massachusetts ground game that would have helped. But the idea that Ted Kennedy just bounced off the electorate isn’t well supported by the evidence.

  • The old boys club isnt ready for a woman.

    Ya know, I don’t really mind so much if Obama people say that black people should vote for Obama because he’s black, or if Hillary people say that women should vote for Hillary because she’s a woman. I’d prefer it not be that way, but it’s not a big deal. After all, there are plenty of people who won’t vote for either of them because they’re not white men, and we generally don’t single them out. But I really don’t like this stuff that flips it on the head, and makes it sound as if we’re doing something wrong by not supporting the black candidate or female candidate.

    Perhaps Ted Kennedy is a sexist jerk, I don’t know; but I’ve seen nothing from any of these people to suggest it’s a gender thing. This is terribly offensive and wrong. People can support Hillary without being racist or support Barack without being sexist. Let’s not make things worse than they already are.

  • Obama’s more beholden to the failed “centrist” DLC tendencies of the past. He’s not creating a new politics, but attempting to ride old hatreds.

    Please stop. The Clintons ARE the DLC. Or just about as close as it comes. Clinton was the DLC chair from 1990-1991. He gave speeches for them even after his presidency. They tout him as their biggest success. Before Republicans became outcasts, Hillary was totally the DLC candidate. I have no idea why you people are so casually rewriting history, but this has got to stop. Hillary is firmly entrenched in the Democratic establishment. She only became the “insurgent” once Obama started catching up with her.

    And as I’ve said before, the difference between what the DLC did and what Barack does is that Barack talks like a moderate while pushing liberal policies, while the DLC talks like liberals while pushing conservative policies. Hillary was a poster child for the DLC until Republicans got rejected. She only turned liberal when she realized that conservatives were unpopular.

  • “but she’s hardly the gatecrasher. Consider some of her top surrogates utilized earlier this year — Bill Clinton (President in the ’90s), Madeline Albright (Secretary of State in the ’90s), Wesley Clark (NATO commander in the ’90s), and Dick Gephardt (Democratic House Leader in the ’90s). Hardly the stuff of an outsider.”

    Or how about Penn, Wolfson, Carville, and Begala. The only one missing is Shrum.

  • Wow, had to get down to Nony’s comment @ 15 before I found one that seems to be reality-based…

    The truth is that the only way one could not hang some bit of the establishment around Obama is if all of his support were coming from people no one ever heard of – because any endorsement that is coming from inside the Beltway is an establishment stamp of approval.

    Obama is coming to us via the Chicago political system and the US Senate – where he has not exactly distinguished himself as a firebrand-brandishing, set-the-establishment-on-its-head Senator. He has allied himself with numerous establishment politicians, who must be comfortable enough with his respect for and treatment of the establishment that he is perceived as posing no particular threat to the way things are done – or what is going to happen in the future. And if you all think that endorsements on either side come with no strings, with no expectation of at least having more of someone’s ear, or the chance at the inside track – well, you haven’t been paying much attention to the way things are done in Our Nation’s Capitol.

    Obama may not be “the” establishment candidate, but he’s not the opposite of one, either; I don’t think anyone who plans on trying to make inroads in DC stands much of a chance without a nod to the establishment, which does have the ability to make a freshman’s life hell and quash his or her dreams in a heartbeat. No one rises to this level of the American political system without playing nice with it.

    Make the argument that Obama can do it better, can be more effective, but don’t try to sell the baloney that Obama is a true insurgent – there is nothing in his record that would suggest he is. And, frankly, I think we ought to be glad that he isn’t.

    As for The DLC – you really ought to check out the CV of some of Obama’s advisors – there’s enough DLC in there to take a little of the “surge” out of “insurgent.”

  • That’s all we need. Having Obama characterized as the “insurgent” candidate. Look what the “insurgent” candidates in Iraq have done to their country. “Osama Obama Hussein, the ‘insurgent’ candidate. Need we say more.” I can just here it now.

    All this talk about Ted Kennedy endorsing Obama when Bobby Kennedy Jr actually endorsed Clinton. that seems to balance out.

    This seems pretty petty to even be discussing. They are mere labels and words of generalities. How will this stop the torturing for experimentation going on at Gitmo?

    This pettiness distracts from telling both candidates that we want a single payer NOT FOR PROFIT health care plan, or no permanent bases which Bush is now building using a signing statement to ignore the law preventing him from building them. “But…but…who is the insurgent candidate?” Would that be the one putting IEDs in the defense spending bill, the MCA and the Patriot Act, and the bogus FISA Protect Bush and the Telecom’s illegal spying on Americans Act.

  • *On February 6th, 2008 at 2:20 pm, memekiller is right on.*

    Obama was again, in his speech last night, holding up republicans as good examples of governance without mentioning any democrats. Yes one was Lincoln, but apparently we are supposed to run away from the democrats of our past and embrace republican presidents.

    I don’t know if anyone will buy the meme of Obama being an establishment candidate either, but if you look, his rhetoric says one thing, and his citations say another.

  • Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich and John Edwards are examples of what happens to anyone who is not largely an establishment candidate. They tend to have a small core of supporters but they rarely catch fire. Mike Huckabee is the glaring exception but, he has God on his side.

  • How about an old conspiracy theory?

    Sen Kerry sure is fired up for Obama, and Kerry can hardly be characterized as an “insurgent”. Seems like his political future would be better served by playing this one close to the vest.

    I want to see the redacted sections of the Barrett Report now, not in October or November. We all know that coverups are far more damaging than the crimes (or possible crimes, or allegations of crime) that they seek to hide. I do not want to see a Clinton nomination torpedoed by some random Republican Congressman waving a stack of papers on the evening news.

  • Mike Huckabee is the glaring exception but, he has God on his side. -Dennis – SGMM

    For the GOP, it doesn’t get any more establishment than that.

  • hit_escape @31 – Which speech are you talking about? The only one I could find didn’t say anything about Lincoln, but he did say nice things about Democrats. He started off by praising Senator Durbin and said nice things about Hillary. And he put down Bush (including Hillary’s foolish trust in him) and the Republicans currently running for president. And he said that “Those Republicans are running on the politics of yesterday. And that is why our party must be the party of tomorrow.” I see no embrace of Republican presidents here at all. Perhaps you read a different speech that I couldn’t find.

    Here’s the speech I read:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/us/politics/05text-obama.html?pagewanted=all

  • she’s practically an incumbent

    This is really a ridiculous thing to say. Even if she herself had been president or VP during the Clinton administration, it ended seven years ago. Was Nixon an “incumbent” in 1968?

  • You know, there was a time that DLC was the insurgency. When they got together to oppose the liberal wing of the Democratic party (Ted Kennedy anyone) to put forth a candidate who could win in a national election.

    Twice.

    Now I suppose the DLC is establishment, and so is Hillary.

    But boy, I was right. The last bunch of comments are just silly.

  • I’m sorry to be rude, but this is a silly debate. We have one side saying that Barack is the establishment candidate because some members of the establishment support him; and the other side is saying that Hillary is the establishment because she and her husband have been firmly entrenched in the Democratic establishment since before he became the most popular Democratic president in modern history. In essence, one candidate is establishment by association, while the other is undoubtedly part of the establishment and has always been supported by them. I fail to see how this is even a debate.

    The only reason this is even an argument is that Hillary was supposed to be the invincible candidate who had all the advantages, and now it’s really embarrassing that the upstart Obama has made deep in-roads into her support, and might eventually beat her. And instead of admitting that, they’re rewriting the past year of politics to make it seem as if Barack’s the one with all the advantages and that Hillary has been fighting the good fight and holding firm against superior force. And the fact that they’ve made this switch is just more evidence as to how desperate Hillary’s campaign is. I’m not suggesting that it’s certain Obama will be able to surpass Hillary’s longtime lead, but let’s not rewrite history for the sake of a little election spin.

  • ewwww, what’s that smell? did a fish truck fall over on its side?

    Oh wait, that’s just a few of Bill Clinton’s interns. They forgot to close their legs.

    NO MORE CLINTONS!!!

    AMERICA DESERVES BETTER!!!

    OBAMA IN 2008!!!

  • Senator Clinton benefits primarily from her proximity to the former president and her name.

    Exactly! She’s doing as well as she is almost entirely because most who vote for her think they’re voting to re-elect Bill (they’re not) and/or because of name recognition. If she had to run on her own merits and her own name, she’d have been out of the race by now.

    For me, electing the first woman president would only be special if she didn’t have to rely on her husband to get her there.

  • Barack is sure picking up alot of states AK 400 votes total D caucus, ID 19,000 total votes D caucas not bad for Barack having a rally where he stated 20,000 showed up for a rally then he got 16,000 votes, need I mention MA with all the establishment behind him the Kennedy’s, Kerry and the new Gov and he lost by 16% and over 200,000 votes.

    vs: Clinton AR 300,000 to 100,000, TN 250,000 to 120,000 oh and OK 200,000 to 75,000 and those were primaries.

  • …electing the first woman president would only be special if she didn’t have to rely on her husband to get her there.

    Well put.

  • …need I mention MA with all the establishment behind him the Kennedy’s, Kerry and the new Gov and he lost by 16%…

    Jim,

    I refer you to link in comment number 23 above.

  • Panic,
    It always comes down to the Clenis with the haters, doesn’t it?

    Doc,
    I thought of Obama as establishment before Penn said this — and it was part of his appeal. He’s the first guy DC can like. Part of what makes me waver so much — do I go for the guy Chris Matthews fawns over, or do I not give a with who Matthews likes?

    The Clinton’s were far more insurgent in their day than people realize. It really upset the balance in Washington, where it was thought the days of Democratic Presidencies was over, and we were supposed to continue on some sort of stasis with Dems in Congress and Clitnon the WH. To make matters worse, this all coincided with the coming OJ Simpson era of cable that Gingrich exploited, and Drudge, and the press and chattering class got fat peddling their garbage.

    To this day, the DC establishment feels like the Clintons didn’t belong in DC, and were a couple of backwards hicks who brought in the riff-raff. The appeal of Obama is a chance to embrace the inevitable Democratic wave without removing any tarnish from the Clinton legacy. The media have their favorites, and Obama is their new McCain. Which is good. We want that. But we also don’t want the punditry deciding who our nominees are.

  • It is ironic that the woman trying to become the first female president of the US is taking the approach that she deserves the spot because her of her husband.

    I have no problem at all voting for a woman president. I wish that the woman ran on her own merits, and not her husband’s.

  • Barack is sure picking up alot of states AK 400 votes total D caucus, ID 19,000 total votes D caucas not bad for Barack having a rally where he stated 20,000 showed up for a rally then he got 16,000 votes, need I mention MA with all the establishment behind him the Kennedy’s, Kerry and the new Gov and he lost by 16% and over 200,000 votes.

    vs: Clinton AR 300,000 to 100,000, TN 250,000 to 120,000 oh and OK 200,000 to 75,000 and those were primaries.

    This posts highlights probably the biggest falsehood of the Penn statement, the notion that voters “rejected” anything about Obama. The last I heard (CNN’s political ticker), Clinton received about 55,000 votes more than Obama yesterday, out of more than 14 million cast. That’s not a rejection; that’s a tie.

    (And I presume that doesn’t include the caucus states.)

  • Hillary has been in Washington for 16 years.
    Obama for 3.
    Simple math may be problem for Rethugs, but not us. Don’t continue to insult me, Hillary.

  • 1) They are both sitting Senators – the ultimate establishment club. Neither can credibly claim to be anti-establishment, and even prior to the Kennedy endorsement, remember that two of Obama’s top advisors are David Axelrod and Tom Daschle – two very long time insiders. Obama may be an insurgent, but that does not necessarily equal anti-establishment.

    2) Penn is a nutjob who should have been fired long ago. Still, CB’s question went to why Penn would try such a silly argument as “Ted Kennedy’s endorsement = establishment candidate.” I’ll tell you why Penn might try that: because that very argument stuck to Dean after the Gore endorsement and is part of why the Gore endorsement was not effective (some have argued that insider imprimateur was what killed the Dean campaign; I would not go close to that far, but the fact that some did likely encouraged Penn to try the same thing).

  • Meme – I think we’re talking about two different things: The DC Establishment v. The Democratic Establishment. The first has always hated Clinton, while he’s the symbolic leader of the second. When talking about the Democratic primary, I consider the second to be the bigger issue.

    For me, this issue is about which candidate had all the advantages, and which one is the underdog. No one considered Hillary to be the underdog until after she got trounced in Iowa. But she still has the establishment behind her. Again, when we speak of this stuff, the DLC is used as shorthand; and she’s still a bigwig in the DLC. Again, the point is that she had all the advantages, but Obama has been able to overcome many of those advantages and is poised to take the lead for good. In this case, because a stalemate usually favors the underdog, both sides are claiming to be the underdog; but I fail to see how that’s Hillary.

    But I agree that the DC Establishment probably likes Barack better, and that’s a good thing. Their problem with Bill wasn’t that he was too partisan or ideological. They just didn’t like his attitude, and set him up for a big fall. And while I don’t think kowtowing to them is necessarily a good thing, if it’s just meaningless symbolic stuff, I don’t see what the problem is. These are silly, superficial people, and if stroking their egos means we get better liberal policies, I’ll take it. Don’t fool yourself into thinking they’re anti-liberal. They just like to pretend they’re in charge. It’s my belief that Obama will give them the appearance of that, without giving them any power. Trust me, these people are too foolish to know the difference. After all, that’s how the Bushies fooled them too. The DC Establishment might have liked Bush, but Rove and Cheney were running the town.

  • What happened to Hillary’s plan for healthcare during the 90’s? (besides Hillary deciding that taking money from the healthcare industry for her own pocket was more important than her dream for national healthcare)

  • I think people are projecting a lot onto Hillary that may reflect their own belief, but doesn’t reflect reality. All this stuff about how she thinks she deserves or is owed the office because of Bill, and worse, that she cannot do it without his help, that she has nothing to offer in her own right – it’s just ludicrous.

    Check out what the woman has done since she was in college – it should impress even the most jaded Clinton-hater, but for some reason the myth persists that she has nothng going for her but her name, and is only who she is because she is Mrs. Clinton, and that not only unfairly diminishes the important work she has done and the things she has managed to accomplish, but it does, by extension, diminish all married women who believe – and know – that where they are in life was not achieved by benefit of marriage. There is not a doubt in my mind that if Hillary had never laid eyes on Bill Clinton, she would have worked as hard and would have accomplished as much – perhaps arriving where she is now from a different road, but arriving nonetheless.

    In another thread, I clicked on a link memkiller provided, that took me to TPM Election Central, where I read the story and saw the photo of Obama’s latest mailer, where he rips Bill Clinton over Democratic losses during his administration. I do not buy the argument from the mailer or the campaign that this is just to illustrate how better-positioned and qualified Obama is to strengthen the Democratic party – I see it as using Bill to take a cheap shot at Hillary – bolstering the conclusion that electing her will get us an administration that mirrors the years from 1993-2000. It not only does not help the Democratic party to send out this message, but it panders to Hillary and Bill-haters among Republicans and independents as a way to get votes. I just fail to see how appealing to the Clinton-haters is supposed to (1) strengthen the Democratic Party or (2) unite the country.

    I’ve lost count of how many times Obama has used rhetoric to seduce and actions to undermine – and that is not going to help the party or the country.

  • Zeitgest gets it right: insurgent =/= “anti-establishment”. Obama is the insurgent, but that doesn’t mean he’s a Ron-Paul-styled anti-establishment candidate. It just means he’s someone who’s decided he can build his own party infrastructure and wrest the mantle of party leader from the hands of those who currently cling to it. So far, he’s shown that he’s got a pretty damn good shot at doing just that. His coalition is growing; hers is shrinking. His fundraising pool is expanding, hers is shrinking. etc etc.

    Wasn’t it just 3 weeks ago that the Clinton campaign was calling Feb 5th their new “firewall”? After, of course, their NH “firewall” pretty much crumbled? (Her lead held, but it didn’t turn back the rising Obama tide). Now that her Feb 5th “firewall” crumbled, what’s next? March 4th? sigh.

    The dynamics in the race are clear, and as I noted in another post, accurately described by Mark Schmitt in a new piece out today:

    Every election night, win or lose, one gets a sense from the Obama campaign of the methodical vote-by-vote construction of a new winning coalition. Sure, some of the basic demographics of his campaign remain: He does better among better-educated voters, among younger voters, among whites in Northern states, and less well among Latinos, older voters, and other constituencies of the Democratic base. But that’s normal—an insurgent candidate always starts with better-educated and younger voters, because they’re the ones likely to be looking for an alternative. It’s a picture in motion. Obama first peeled off the African American vote, which, despite his race, is not insignificant—no one’s ever done it before, and there was no reason to think that working-class African Americans would see the biracial son of a Kenyan grad student as having much in common with their experience. He started to peel off union members. On Tuesday, the results were mixed and complicated by the distinctive demographics of each state, but he started to reach further up in age—in a number of states, Clinton’s advantage didn’t begin until reaching voters over 50.

    The methodical, additive construction of the Obama coalition might fall short, in the end. The trend line of the insurgency might never quite cross that of the Democratic base. Certainly the historical odds are against it. But he’s hit all his reasonable targets so far. And he’s working it like someone who understands what it is to win elections and govern—there’s no magical moment when everyone sees your brilliance and votes for you.

    I’d add that in AZ, he started to cut into Clinton’s Latino lead too. From what I saw, he grabbed 44% of the latino vote there. Her original strategy was based on name-ID: she was known and considered suitable, so all she had to do was make the case that Obama and Edwards were not suitable. When it became clear that she couldn’t bury Obama’s campaign, the next strategy was just to sow enough doubt about him to “run out the clock” on her lead in Feb 5th, leave the day with a 200+ delegate advantage and her super-delegate leg-up, and claim the mantle of “victor”. She’s now failed at that task.

    I’m not sure she can win this anymore. I guess we’ll see, but I expect Obama will only continue to rise, and after a string of victories and Feb and two weeks to campaign before March 4th, he might finally do what no insurgent has done before: co-opt the traditional Dem base from the establishment candidate. It’s kind of thrilling, and a testament to the man’s political skill. Many here have taken exception to some of his tactics, or been angered by him left and right, but the results don’t lie: the man has run a brilliant campaign just to get this far. He didn’t just take on the establishment, he’s taken on and gone toe-to-toe with the biggest establishment candidate I can recall in decades. Certainly Clinton is even more firmly entrenched than Gore was. And while they’re pretty much neck-and-neck right now, Obama seems to be accelerating, while Clinton is loaning herself money just to keep from running out of gas. Damned impressive, no matter how you cut it.

  • Zeitgeist,

    Neither can credibly claim to be anti-establishment, and even prior to the Kennedy endorsement, remember that two of Obama’s top advisors are David Axelrod and Tom Daschle – two very long time insiders.

    I agree. It seems to me like the establishment isn’t sure who the establishment is anymore. There are two sides, each clearly behind a candidate, each pointing at the other and shouting establishment as if it were an insult.

    I think Penn’s goal is to take some wind out of Obama’s ‘Washington insiders’ bit.

    Check out what the woman has done since she was in college… -Anne

    Like when she was the leader of the Wellesley Young Republicans? 🙂 (Hey, I just checked out her college resume like you suggested?)

  • Anne @53 – Sorry to say this, but I think your way of thinking that Hillary could have done this all on her own is somewhat comparable to Clarence Thomas denouncing affirmative action while refusing to acknowledge where it got him. I am quite convinced that Hillary would have been successful in life, even without Bill. But it’s pure fantasy to speculate that she would have gotten exactly as far without him. She married him shortly after college and we have no idea where she would have gotten without him. There are many successful men and women in our country who never run for president, and it’s not a knock on their success that it didn’t happen. Without a doubt, getting name recognition is one of the biggest stumbling blocks in politics (just ask George W. and Mitt Romney). I commend her for using the name well, and she clearly accomplished much that the name didn’t give her, but let’s not pretend it didn’t exist.

    As for your knock on Barack for appealing to Clinton-haters, what’s the problem there exactly? I know why you don’t like it, because you like Hillary and dislike the people who hate her. But I’d be more than happy if Obama could count on the support of the typical Democratic base, along with even half of the Clinton haters. As long as he’s not actually giving them anything of substance, what does it matter how he gets them to like him? That’s not to say I’d support open attacks on her, but merely that I’d rather push liberal policies with these people than Bill’s old conservative policies without them. You can imagine that a Hillary presidency will look significantly different than the Bill one, but I can’t.

    Overall, it just sounds like you don’t like this because it hurts your candidate; and not that this makes him a bad candidate. Can you explain how it hurts the party to make rhetorical appeals to these people, while continuing to push liberal policies?

  • Why this odd “insurgent” spin?

    It’s about money, who has it and who needs it– today’s breaking news that she “loaned” her campaign $5 million last month. Yes, the very same month that Obama brought in $32 million dollars.

    While loaning your campaign money isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it is if you’re the Clintons and people start asking where the money came from– BC’s amazing speaking fees, many from middle eastern countries. It could drag more Bill-related drama into the campaign, to Obama’s benefit.

    For the record, I’m one of those people who actually likes both Hillary AND Obama. So this isn’t an attack on Hillary, it’s just a reality check. (no pun intended)

  • The idea that having the money disqualifies Obama as an insurgent (note that I’m not saying that this is your position zoe) is pretty ludicrous, given where it’s coming from. Consider what Obama has accomplished here. His funds have come from 600,000 individuals, most of whom are small donors. You can debate all you like about which is the people’s candidate, but Obama’s has been the people’s campaign by the plain, simple numbers. I should hope that despite one’s leanings, the fact that the big money donors are being outstripped by the voting public can be taken as an encouraging sign.

  • To try to paint Obama as the establishment candidate would be laughable if it were not so reminiscent of the Bush-Rove spinning factory pronouncements.
    Saying something is so, does NOT make it so. It is an insult to democratic voters to try to spin Obama as the establishment candidate when Clinton has significantly more elected officials, more congressmen and women,way more superdelegates and tons more $ from lobbyists and Pacs(rather than individual donors) than Obama does.
    Please Hillary Rodham Clinton, do not allow yourself and your campaign to stoop to
    this tactic; it demeans you all.

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