Why do Catholics prefer Clinton to Obama?

At first blush, there’s no obvious reason to explain why Barack Obama is, according to exit polls, struggling with Catholic voters. He’s opposed the war in Iraq; he’s presented an ambitious plan to combat global warming; he’s taken a progressive attitude on capital punishment and immigration, emphasizes “social justice,” and while he’s pro-choice, Obama has talked at some length about the kind of policies that could reduce the number of abortions. Pepperdine’s Doug Kmiec, a conservative Catholic, endorsed Obama in February, saying he’s a “natural” for the Catholic vote.

Except, it clearly hasn’t worked out that way. The white Catholic vote has been backing Hillary Clinton strongly and fairly consistently: “[Clinton] has won the group by double-digits in 16 of the 22 states where data were available. In Pennsylvania, Clinton won 70 percent of all Catholics.” The margin was even more one-sided among white Catholic voters who attend mass at least once a week.

If Obama’s a “natural” for the Catholic vote, why is Clinton beating him so easily among Catholic voters? Melinda Henneberger explored the issue in an interesting piece for Slate.

A priest I know in central Pennsylvania, the Rev. John Chaplin, sees race as an issue. “At my little church, some of what I heard was racial, and some of it was people believing that stuff about Obama being a Muslim,” said Chaplin. Parishioners seemed to find video clips of Obama’s former preacher, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, particularly shocking in contrast to the formality of the Catholic Mass and our high-church fondness for services so decorous that one really needn’t exchange a word with another soul. (“We don’t carry on like that in our church” is how one woman in Chaplin’s diocese, the 67-year-old wife of a retired cop, described her reaction to Wright to me.)

“You know that Catholic thing about propriety,” Chaplin said, “that you penalize people for speaking out and never penalize them for keeping quiet? That’s part of it, and the Catholic notion of patriotism, which is heavily nationalistic, hurts him, too. This isn’t a group predisposed to voting for Hillary — when she can get the votes away from you, you know people have got it in for you — because this is not a hotbed of feminism. But the racial thing was already there….

OK, so there’s some racial animus driving the Catholic vote away from Obama. But there has to be more to it, right?

I would assume so, but Henneberger didn’t seem to find much else. She noted that Clinton, at least rhetorically, has been slightly less supportive of abortion rights — she said a few years ago that every abortion is a tragedy — but it’s unlikely that has made too big a difference. After all, most U.S. Catholics disagree with the church about reproductive rights (and the number goes up among U.S. Catholics who identify themselves as Democrats.)

Henneberger also had this outside-the-box theory:

Though Saturday Night Live wouldn’t seem to be in the vanguard of Catholic thought, Tina Fey may have been onto something with her “Bitch Is the New Black” comparison of Hillary to a cranky but proficient old nun: “Bitches get stuff done; that’s why Catholic schools use nuns as teachers and not priests. They’re mean … and they sleep on cots, and they’re allowed to hit you. And at the end of the school year, you hated those bitches. But you knew the capitol of Vermont.”

The ’04 Casey voter says nun-run Catholic schools turned out a lot of good feminists: “Older Catholics with exposure to nuns in school may be more comfortable with women in positions of authority.”

I don’t find this is especially compelling.

But what else is there? Why is Obama struggling to connect with Catholic voters? Race certainly has something to do with it, but is that the only factor? And if so, would racial animus drive Catholics to McCain in November?

I’m just throwing this out there for some discussion.

It may be simply that the church-going Catholic population has aged. Clinton does better with this group across the board than Obama does.

  • Fuck yeah it’s race and they will vote for McSame in November or they’ll stay home. They are all reagan dems and won’t vote for a black dude. I don’t think Obama needs them, but I don’t know shit.

  • Perhaps ethnic loyalties that are tied in to appreciation for the Bill Clinton’s presidency and foreign policy play a part? I believe that is a big reason for the Hispanic support for Senator Clinton in states such as CA and TX.

  • @1: It may be simply that the church-going Catholic population has aged.

    Good point, though treating American Catholics as a monolithic voting block is a flawed premise anyway — I was raised in the social justice tradition of the church, and that demographic (like many socially liberal religious types) finds Obama quite compelling. That facet of the Catholic Church is alive and well, particularly in urban Latino and other recent immigrant communities.

  • Catholics, almost by definition, are defenders of tradition, and Clinton represents “tradition” vs Obama’s newness.

    That’s my guess.

  • I’m a (former) Catholic, a survivor of nun-run schools, and an older white woman. I like Obama.

    Is this trend real? Or is it regional? Indiana isn’t exactly a hot bed of civil rights activity, is it?

  • I’m not sure in the end this comes down to Catholics going for Obama or Clinton. I think they’ll go for McCain not which gets the Democratic nomination. Hillary Clinton is now basing her campaign on a group of voters that will lean Republican in the fall. Alot of those older and middle aged white women flocking to her in the primaries will suddenly become John McCain’s “security moms” in the fall. The clinton campaign with the help of the media is turning this group (working class white, Catholic, etc) into the deal maker. Clinton would lose a large number of them to McCain, she won’t appeal to independants, young voters, crossover voters. That’s where Obama has the edge. What he loses in the Reagan Democratic vote he could make up with whole new voting segments. He could put more states into play. He’s opening up the Democratic Party, rather than tieing it to voters who are leaving in droves.

    By the way. I grew up in a working class, white, Catholic neighborhood on the southwest side of Chicago. It’s race, believe me.

  • Well, as a pretty much lapsed Catholic, I have to wonder myself. I voted for Clinton in the VA primary because I think her experience is dispositive (that means it is the compelling argument).

    I don’t know why Senator Obama can’t get a larger portion of the Catholic vote. But then I’m not economically in Clinton’s base, being rather better off than the median income. As such I’m supposed to be in the group of well-off liberals that Obama is supposed have a lock on. Since I’m totally outside the expectations of this campaign, how can I explain other (church attending) Catholics.

    Still, I think it rather unfair to accuse them of racism. Is that the reason everybody opposes Obama?

    As for abortion, I think Clinton’s “Safe, Legal and Rare” position is compelling to American Catholics, who don’t really like abortion but don’t like the state or the church having a pad-lock on women’s reproductive organs either.

    As for believing that Obama is a Muslim, I suppose Catholics imagine that being a Christian requires baptism in an established church, while Protestants might accept that being a Christian just requires accepting Jesus as your personal savior. That makes it easier to believe that Obama is a Christian, doesn’t it?

  • By and large, I’ve observed Catholics to be a notoriously conservative bunch. Also have you been to a Catholic church recently? They are generally speaking an older crowd.

    Combined with racial bigotry – I am frankly amazed Obama even hits 30% of this crowd. I agree with the sentiments expressed so far – that a large % of this base that currently seems to supporting Clinton will likely move to McCain in the general election.

    I think it would be a mistake for Obama to start fine-tuning his overall message to this particular crowd – as I think the message reaches a wider audience.

  • agree with Bee thousand #4…Would add that Catholics don’t look kindly on evangelicans or any group with highly emotional religious practices in church. Talking in tongues and boogeying in church just doesn’t seem credible to the very structured Catholic way and people who are a part of that kind of worship are just a little bit “off”. Catholics aren’t bothered by black or being a woman but they may be bothered by the perception of a lack of experience. Experience means being around long enough to have the connections and alliances to get behind the scenes things done. This perception of a lack of experience I suggest is the #1 reason for hesitating to support Barack among Catholics.

  • If we’re talking about chuch going Catholics, it is a population of people who are a little more traditional, rule oriented, and organizationally oriented. Hillary’s entire campaign has been aimed at working within the party structure, building relationships with party leadership, getting endorsements, etc. Sen. Obama’s campaign at least in emphasis seems to bypass this traditional approach and appeal to the general public and to independents “over the head” of the party structure.

    I’m not saying that Sen. Obama does not court endorsements or get his fair share, only that the themes of the campaigns are different. One has a theme of change. The other has a theme of fighting for values that we’ve held as a group for a long time. The latter theme probably appeals more to church going Catholic voters, just as the former seems to appeal to more independents.

  • btw…I predict that Catholics as a group will never vote McCain simply because of his connection with Hagee who has demonstrated his great love of Catholics many times in his Mega church of Armageddon especially when reminded that the DoJ and the Supreme Court are on the line.

    I wish people would quit fear mongering with the threat of a McCain win if people don’t do what ever it is they are pushing that day. 75% of this country willl not vote McCain, McBush, McSame, McLame whatever they want to call him. It’s not close and never will be no matter who the dems nominate. People should just laugh when anyone threatens a McCain win for any reason. Yeah, we really want 4 more yrs of Bush. We want a total change not just a slight difference in height. So stop it with the “McCain might win” crap. Only if he steals it and then it wouldn’t be a democracy anymore but a take over. (or did that already happen)

  • A thread for conjecture!

    Well, I’ll bite. Just looking for a pattern, maybe it’s Hillary’s authoritarianism coupled with her political practice of “forgiving” her enemies (Richard Mellon “vast right wing conspiracy” Scaife, Rupert Murdoch, et al.) that is a strange shadow of the requirements of the “papal mind”. There’s nothing more psychologically authoritarian than a Pope to many Catholics, and forgiveness seems to be a matter of form if one repents, sets aside one’s own desires, pays a penance, and submits to the wishes (edicts) of authority again. One is then blessed with the benefits of forgiveness. (Think Bill Clinton’s likely response to Hillary when she realized the entire world knew of his marital infidelities. Or her seemingly-incomprehensible alliance with right-wing forces.)

    There’s also the overlap with older women and their possible identification with and elevation of Hillary, who appears to have transcended a particular kind of adversity common to women (and men these days). We don’t know how many older women have had unfaithful husbands that they stayed with because they couldn’t support themselves or believed under Catholic doctrine that they had to stay, yet there’s Hillary, publicly humiliated by a philandering husband, who stayed when she had the financial and self-supporting wherewithal to leave. In this aspect, she may seem like a heroine or saint-like to some women.

  • Race has very little to do with it, when you look at exit polls from PA, blacks outnumber whites by more than 2 to 1 when asked if race was a factor in their decision. Nearly 1 in 3 blacks responded that race was in fact a determining factor. I would say considering that they voted over 90% for Obama, the actual number may actually have been a lot higher.

    I would say that Catholics may have been offended by the “clinging to guns and god” remarks, as much as any other church going folks were.

    It’s important to note that Kerry lost due to identity politics, just like McGovern, and other democrats who were painted as elitists by the republicans. I would say that Obama’s current slide in polls is due to people wondering if he really is who he claims to be, and a lot less to do about race. If race really were a big factor, wouldn’t he have been losing all along?

  • This ridiculous claim that everyone who doesn’t vote for obama must be racist because Obamaphiles can’t understand why everyone doesn’t think like him is pure garbage. Just because you people are so narrow-minded that you assume that everyone who doesn’t think like you is some ignorant fool who has no good reason for thier vote, doesn’t make it true.

    Indeed its this attitude, likely shared by Obama as ahown by the Bitter fisaco, that is turning away the vote.

    The real question should be why would Catholics vote for Obama. The answer is that there isn’t one. He is an inexperienced man with no real substance.
    Why don’t Catholics vote for him?
    Because they don’t buy what he is selling and prefer Hillary of the two.

    Its a simple answer. You just refuse to see it.

  • What are the Catholics’ demographics? Maybe they are lower to middle class white people that Obama has trouble with regardless of religion? What is their age? Etc.

    It could be another demographic that is being masked by them being Catholic.

    As the article says, Protestants split their vote based on race, so the underlying demographic of race/class/income/education was the more important one. I don’t think there are that many black catholics…

  • I’m a white Catholic, and I’m offended by Greg’s comment (no. 15) that we’re so stupid as a group that we’d vote against somebody who we’d otherwise support because of a single gaffe.

    Honestly, I have no idea why white Catholics as group would support an unabashed serial liar over Obama. My only theory is consistent with other theories in which the demographics that lean toward Hillary (white women and older voters) might overlap significantly with Catholics.

  • Mathew Pattara said:
    “By and large, I’ve observed Catholics to be a notoriously conservative bunch. Also have you been to a Catholic church recently?”

    Yes, although I’m not Catholic.

    “They are generally speaking an older crowd.”

    Well, the one church (in the city) was. The other, rural church, was not. I don’t think that is it. Do you have any studies to back that up?

  • Historically, African Americans haven’t been much attracted to Roman Catholicism, and the US church has never expended much energy in proselytizing to that group. So what you have is basically a white church. Attend the largest Sunday Mass at any US RC church, and you’ll see precious few black faces. Black priests? Black Bishops? Nuns? Fuggedaboudit.

    So it shouldn’t be too surprising if church-going Catholics tend to view a black candidate as some sort of alien. And in areas of the country where Catholicism is most concentrated, the parishes tend to be dominated by whatever ethnicity is most prevalent, whether it’s Irish, Polish, Italian, Mexican or whatever. That kind of demographic distribution would also tend to amplify any predisposition to racial/ethnic insularity.

    Too bad our demographer in residence (Ed Stephan) is running around Europe right now; I’d be interested in his take..

  • While racism may be at the root of some Catholics’ rejection of Obama, I think the Obama’s association with the Rev. Wright is a much bigger factor. Here are four reasons why:

    1) Most churchgoing Catholic won’t believe that Obama was unaware of Rev. Wright’s views. In a Catholic parish, all the parishioners are intimately familiar with the views of each of the priests from listening to their respective homilies each week. They know who is conservative, who is liberal and how much.

    2) The geographic boundaries of Catholic parishes are well defined. For example, Catholics wishing to be married outside their home parish need the permission of their parish to do so. In part, this is to force Catholics to attend and support their local church. However, every Catholic family that I know has a member who just refuses to attend services at their local church because of their displeasure at how those services are conducted and/or the content of the sermons given. So despite the obstacles, Catholics are very willing to attend churches outside their parishes to get the religious experience that they seek. As a result, Catholics cannot understand why one would continue to attend a church whose services one found to be objectionable.

    3) Many Catholic parishes have an African American contingent. Those parishioners conduct themselves in church in the same way as other Catholics. So, Catholics do not accept the assertion that Rev. Wright and his ilk are a necessary part of the African American religious experience.

    4) Mainstream Catholic churches are extremely patriotic. Most Catholics can still remember the immigrants within their family who were thrilled to become US citizens and they honor the sacrifices that those family members in order to give their children a better life in the US. As a result, many Catholics are disgusted by the comparisons of the U.S and Al Qaeda or the characterization of the US government as evil.

    Obama will not win the Catholic vote in 2008.

  • I agree with everyone who has been saying that age is more of a factor than race. And I also understand why some attendees at more staid houses of worship might not be comfortable with denominations that incorporate more expressive elements into the liturgy.

    I also think that many people, across the demographics of race, gender, religion, and age are questioning Obama’s candidacy right now because of his inability to shake off the Wright story. The fact that it has plagued his poll numbers for over a month now may confirm the major concern that many voters had about him from the start; that he lacks experience. And, ever since the “bitter” incident, which might have come and gone had his campaign not already been weakened by the Wright controversy, Obama has been off-message. That’s not a good sign. Early on, even when he lost the New Hampshire primary, he stayed on message, and delivered the rousing speech that introduced the “Yes We Can” slogan to the public. Contrast that to the rambling laundry-list-of-issues speech he gave when he lost Pennsylvania. He has definitely been damaged by this, and if he can’t figure out a way to come back strong and regain the momentum, I worry about the fate of the general election.

    And, to the commenter who said that McCain has no chance of winning because the issues are in our favor . . . I remind you that the issues are often in our favor, yet we still lose. Bush should’ve been toast in 2004, but why was he re-elected? Because he convinced the masses (and the media, which is even more idiotic than the average joe on the street,) that he was a regular guy, a pal who could be trusted, unlike that windsurfing elitist from Massachusetts. Similarly, McCain has already convinced the media that he’s a reasonable, moderate guy who thinks for himself, even as his voting record has demonstrated otherwise. His 2000 campaign perpetuated that image with the public, and, now that he has aged significantly, he has been able to seem grandfatherly, in addition to perpetuating the nonsense about his being moderate.

    Most people vote based on sound bites. They don’t parse the issues. They don’t dig beyond the headlines. It is simply: “McCain seems honorable. He’s a veteran. I like him.” Or “Obama goes to a church where the preacher hates America. He’s not getting my vote.” Obama needs to roll out some compelling reason to vote for him, otherwise we may be in for another loss, due once again to the stupidity of the masses and the cravenness of a media that can be bought, and that strives only for the latest sensational story.

  • I think it has a lot to do with the split between how Clinton and Obama talk about faith. Obama speaks like an evangelical, Clinton much closer to a Catholic.

  • Ken said, “Mainstream Catholic churches are extremely patriotic.

    The implication being that Obama isn’t? I call bullshit on this.

    Many Catholic parishes have an African American contingent.

    The implication being that this contingent is significant relative to non-blacks? I call bullshit on this one too.

    In fact, every theory and bit of supporting evidence that Ken provided in his post above (no. 22) is utter nonsense.

  • Raised blue collar Irish catholic – My mother “83” supports Obama – me – 53 Obama – my sister 55 Clinon – the comment in my family is that my father will roll-over in his grave when my mom votes for a black

  • Catholics already have plenty of HOPE, what we need is someone to roll up her sleeves and get down to work. Catholics aren’t much swayed by oration–we want action!

  • My wife and daughter, both practicing Catholics, both Obama supports, are both at war with our greater extended Catholic family – all of whom, almost without exception, will not now vote for Obama, though many had expressed early support.

    I agree with the analysis that this has much to do with propriety (along with a built-in respect for paternal authority). Wright, and maybe even more so, Michelle, have caused these folks to sour on Obama. And they are not coming back. I disagree (#13) that Hagee’s “whore” comment and his association with McCain will have any balancing impact at all. These Catholics, for the most part, have no awareness of Christian cultures outside the Catholic. Hagee is invisible and trivial. Black people are visible and scary!

    Oh, and Scalia is a hero.

  • Catholics aren’t much swayed by oration–we want action!

    Platitudes will get you everywhere….with the right-wing crowd.

    This white Catholic voted for Obama, and is looking forward to having him represent us in the White House.

  • As a Catholic, I think race is not such a factor regarding my opinion of Barak Obama. The Catholic church is probably the most diverse on the planet…on every continent, every race and nationality. I’m just not swayed by the argument that the Catholic Church appears racist. Obama comes accross as arrogant, in a John Kerry sort of way. Kerry’s Catholic, and he didn’t do very well among Catholic voters. I plan on supporting McCain, so I will say I am more of a conservative voter. My father served in Vietnam, and this also influences my favorable opinion toward McCain. I just think Obama talks the talk, and McCain walks the walk.

  • I am a serious Catholic and I am voting for John McCain because of his strong pro-life position and for other reasons, e.g., his experience, military heroism, strength of character and courage, etc. If I had to choose, however between Hillary or Obama I would choose Hillary for the simple reason that she is less extreme with her pro-abortion stance than Obama’s. Obama receives a “0” from the National Right to Life Committee, and no wonder. He voted against banning partial birth abortion; he voted “no” to parental notification. In the Illinois state Senate, he opposed a bill similar to the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, which prevents the killing of infants mistakenly left alive by abortion. And now Obama has oddly claimed that he would not want his daughters to be “punished with a baby” because of a crisis pregnancy — hardly a welcoming attitude toward new life. Obama is much too extreme on abortion for my Catholic conscience to support. I would never vote for him.

  • I wonder how Alex feels about capital punishment–another position opposed by the Church. Does he (or she) support candidates who oppose capital punishment?

  • I wonder how Alex feels about the war in Iraq? The Catholic Church has made it abundantly clear that they oppose this war. Why doesn’t he oppose persons who voted for the resolution to go to war? Why doesn’t he oppose the candidate who wants to continue this war?

    Like most American Catholics, Alex appears to be a cafeteria Catholic…at least when it comes to casting his vote.

  • Catholics are more comfortable with devils they know,(and the Catholic Church has more than their share),than a black devil they don’t know. Fear is part of the traditional indoctrination ,after all-do they get to vote for Pope? I believe the Pope and the Bush administration have helped out the Catholic Church via Scalia(whom I read had ties to Opus Dei.)Wasn’t there legislation enacted in ’05 capping the dollar amounts of class action suits -at the time the Catholic priest pedophile lawsuits were raging? Does anybody recall G.W. going to the Vatican just prior to ’04 election? I believe this Pope’s visit a couple of weeks ago was to issue an edict that monsignors instruct their parish priests to send a political message to their parishoners-the Hispanics are mostly Catholic-they’re a big voting block.————BTW,what happened to the alleged outrage by Donahue of the Catholic League re: Hagee’s comments about the Catholic Church being the Great Whore of Babylon? Nary a peep during Pope’s recent visit! Nary a peep,period? Isn’t that odd?

  • Obama knew the racist Wright for 20 years and attended Wright’s church for at least 15 years, so Obama has some racist views that he agreed with Wright on. Obama has lots of links to Muslims that are racists…heck, he has a bunch of Islamic supporting advisors. All that news is only recently coming out, so there must be some other reason/s besides his racism that the Catholics haven’t supported him.

    Perhaps the Catholics don’t like his pacifist stance or his leanings towards supporting Muslim countries. Perhaps Catholics know about Global Warming from the past Ice Ages history, so they reject his stance that it is “man-made”.

    Obama is pro-choice…that certainly doesn’t help in gaining Catholic support.

    He is the most “liberal member of Congress”, and I think Catholics are more conservative. Catholicism is rejected by most Communist countries, and Obama’s agenda is clearly Socialistic, i.e. “one step from Communism.”

    Doug Kmiec sounds more like a liberal Catholic, so I don’t give his Slate Magazine article much credit. What serious Catholic would want to support a man who attended a racist church for at least 15 years, who would not fight our enemies, who has no clue about the history of weather patterns/cycles, who is pro-choice, and who borders on being a Communist?!

    This was interesting (from the WP link):

    But among Protestants and other Christians, Obama’s six percentage point win masks a sharp racial fissure. Black Protestants went for Obama, 93 percent to 7 percent, while white Protestants broke for Clinton, 59 to 41.

  • I oppose capital punishment and the war in Iraq but no one candidate is going to satisfy me or any voter 100%. Abortion is clearly a moral evil and involves the mass killing of innocents on a daily basis. That is why I am focusing on this issue – and no, I am no “cafeteria Catholic.” By definition, a “cafeteria Catholic” is one who accepts some of the Church’s teaching and rejects others. I accept them all, but in terms of voting my conscience abortion is the greater evil committed on a much more massive scale. It would be nice to have a presidential candidate who is against the war, against capital punishment and against abortion, but there are none in this election, so I am forced to choose among these issues in terms of which one is most important.

  • By and large, white catholics (especially Irish Catholics) have historically been part of the Democratic Party “machine.” They know politics is a dirty sport and see it less as a spiritual exercise and more as a tool for getting tangible benefits – like healthcare, tax credits for college tuition etc. – which Hillary focuses on. The the high-mindedness and lofty talk of the Obama campaign about a “New Politics” rings hollow. They would rather a candidate who is willing to go to bat for them and throw a few punches than a candidate who gives good (ok, amazing) speaches about bringing everyone together.

    Undeniably, racism is an issue, but it is not the ONLY issue. As far as I know, there is no evidence that white catholics are any more racist than white protestants. But Catholics likely do find the evangelical style of Rev. Wright (and white evangelical ministers as well) jarring, if only because it is the polar opposite of their own religious experience.

    I agree with #22’s point that most catholics (myself included) don’t understand Obama’s decision to stay in this particular church, as it is a common practice for catholics to “church-shop” – or attend a number of churches to figure out which is the best fit with their beliefs and personalities. Although the Catholic Church condemns homosexuality and abortion, I myself would never return to a church that outwardly preached that homosexuals were evil or that women who have abortions are baby-killers. And I certainly would not return to a church that preached any kind of racism. Even as a left-leaning Democrat, Obama’s decision to remain at Trinity United for 20 years is troubling.

    I disagree with the age theory that is being set forth by other readers. Many people who identify as being Catholic do not regularly attend mass, so the fact that Catholic churches are filled with the AARP crowd isn’t necessarily indicative of the population that checked the “Catholic” box in an exit-poll questionaire.

  • The gap between white Catholic and Protestant voters in the PA primary was almost entirely attributable to the fact that Catholic voters were less likely to have college degrees. Obama & Clinton broke even among whites with college educations. Among those with no college education Clinton cleaned up.

    The supposed Catholic/Protestant divide is really just a reflection of the entire Blue Collar Beer drinker vs. Ivy Tower Wine Drinker dynamic among white Democratic primary voters. It has nothing to do with theology or worship styles.

  • #36Alex- As someone with12 plus years of Catholic education and indoctrination,I do have the benefit(?) of somewhat being on the inside looking outward. It has NEVER been addressed to my satisfaction how the issue of abortion squares with illicit war-do the homilies ever address the artillery induced abortions of hundreds of thousands of innocent unborn-the forgotten little souls of our unjust wars like Vietnam and Iraq-where is the outrage? Is it -because they’re not Catholic,their deaths are less sinful?You never hear about the mind numbing body count of the inocent victims and their mothers of these wars..NEVER. How about people who will criticize Obama for attending a particular church for 15 years,yet the Catholics will sit there in a pedophiliac Church,and bring their children to these same churches again and again-all the while financially supporting the very hierarchy that is perpetrating these crimes. Acquiescent accomplices I say.

  • I recently looked at a number of exit polls for the primaries and noted that Obama’s support among Catholics in states with a significant proportion of Catholics did have some sort of connection with his overall popularity in that state, though it always trailed the average level of support.

    Perhaps the most interesting state is Illinois. Presumably, the average voter is a good deal more familiar with Obama than elsewhere, yet in a state where he got 65% of the overall vote, he only got about 50% of the Catholic vote.

    Another trend that has been almost entirely ignored is that Obama consistently does extremely well among those who aren’t at least somewhat practicing Catholics/Protestants. Since the exit polling data available for Jews have indicated that they generally support Clinton, and other non-Christian religions have too few members to significantly affect the size of this group (which is usually around 40-ish%) seems to be mostly nonpractictioners/irreligious.

  • The reality is we really don’t know because detailed questions done face-to-face, or at least over the phone, would be required to get at the heart of it. I suspect it has more to do with Obama’s shifting stories about what he knew and when he knew it concerning Wright and discomfort about his staying with the church and having a close association with Wright for 20 years.

    Combined with his other questionable associations and the very special real estate deal he cut with one of them, Resko, knowing full well that he was both under a federal investigation at the time and was for a long time one of his largest campaign contributors–well add it all up and it raises serious questions about character and judgment. Not all Catholic voters are fully aware of the details of these events and issues but enough of it leaks through to create uneasiness about Obama that I believe would not be the case if the candidate were, for example, Colin Powell.

    And Colin Powell, like McCain, has something else that Obama has very little of–experience. One can argue that experience doesn’t always matter, but at a time when there is broad agreement that we face big issues as a nation the possession or lack of it is bound to influence voters.

  • DR said:

    Well, the one church (in the city) was. The other, rural church, was not. I don’t think that is it. Do you have any studies to back that up?

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pharseas.world/Decline.html

    “Only 41% of self-identified adult Catholics attend Mass each week, the Pew study found. That number is lowest among young adults, with just 30% of Catholics aged 18-29 attending Mass weekly (by comparison, the figure is 63% among those over the age of 65) – a figure that suggests still greater decline in the number of active Catholics in coming years.”

  • Renell @ 39

    It has NEVER been addressed to my satisfaction how the issue of abortion squares with illicit war-do the homilies ever address the artillery induced abortions of hundreds of thousands of innocent unborn-the forgotten little souls of our unjust wars like Vietnam and Iraq-where is the outrage?

    Run a search on abortions…”artillery induced abortions” doesn’t even show up as a ‘blip‘ compared to the 10’s of millions of yearly abortions – “35 million annually” – “Worldwide, about 46 million women have abortions. This represents 22% of the 210 million pregnancies that occur yearly.” – “20 million unsafe abortions occurred in 2003” – “Because the world’s population is concentrated in Asia, most abortions occurred there—about 26 million yearly; China alone accounted for nine million procedures.”

  • Alex

    Abortion is clearly a moral evil and involves the mass killing of innocents on a daily basis.

    Nonsense. This is your OPINION, but an opinion doesn’t make it a declarative truth. Women have the right to choose what happens to their bodies, and if you don’t approve, don’t you have an abortion. Nobody put you in charge of women’s reproductive lives. They aren’t your business nor within your control. It’s as insufferable for anyone to tell women that they may not have abortions as it is to demand that women have them. In both cases, the right to control one’s reproductive life is wrenched away from women.

    In the meantime, you might not be spinning your wheels as much if you’d campaign for sex/birth control education and access for all females of reproductive age. That would, no doubt, decrease the need for abortion..

  • ~

    I’ll tell you what it is.

    Catholics know an offer of salvation when they see it and are not swayed.

    There are a lot of young and/or secular society members who are seeking salvation, have not been exposed to it in a regular church situation and, thus, flock to Obama.

    He was very smart to realize that many are seeking an “answer” and he has offered himself as “the answer.”

    That’s why his people idolize him and can’t see his flaws. He is their “Lord”.

    Anyone who grew up in the Catholic church recognized his angle and ran away from it as fast as they could.

    Both Clinton and McCain are both virtually secular candidates.

    By the way, isn’t a separation of church and state what we’ve been yelling about for the past 7.5 years?

    The thought of having to listen to him do that black preacher rhetoric for a week, must less 4 years, is a depressing thought.

    I can’t stand him.

    And . . . most importantly, he is not qualified to be president. That’s why Clinton’s people won’t vote for him.

    It’s not that he’s black. It’s that he’s green.

    ~

  • Disclaimer: I am a 39 year old white male.

    I hate to say this but it is race. This is truly sad. Seems like to many democrats
    will vote for a dishonest pandering politician like Hillary instead of a thoughtful candidate like Barack because of his race.

    The democratic party has turned into a passive racist group. It is sad that the party that claims to be inclusive refuses to allow minorities to be nominated.

    Once she steals the nomination (she will. No doubt) and in turn loses the general election the democratic party will be severly wounded fo decades.

    Fine by me. I am a democrat but plan to vote for McCain over Clinton.
    At least he has the balls to tell people the truth.

  • Alex (#31), why is a guy a “hero” because he got shot down and captured in enemy territory? After the terrible bombings of NV? Sure, he was hurt. But I would consider him perhaps brave rather than heroic. And only if the stories of his behavior after his capture are untrue.

    And just how do you define “abortion”? Perhaps you need to start with HUMAN life instead of life itself. When does your god “breathe into him a living soul”? I was under the impression that Adam was already fully formed before that happened, at least according to the Bible. Maybe the soul doesn’t appear until the child is “fully formed”, sometime after birth?

    And what in the hell is “partial birth abortion”?

    And from whence cometh your “conscience”?

    The idea that you would vote for Sen. McCain is reason enough for no one else in their right mind to vote for him.

  • aristedes:
    “Nonsense. This is your OPINION, but an opinion doesn’t make it a declarative truth. Women have the right to choose what happens to their bodies, and if you don’t approve, don’t you have an abortion…”
    No, this is not my opinion. It is a declarative truth. Abortion is the destruction of human life. If the embryo or fetus is not a human life, then what kind of life is it? It certainly is human and if left to grow and develop, a human being will result. So I stand on what I said before that abortion is the killing of innocent human life and any killing of innocent human life is a moral evil according to most religions, including the Catholic Church. Since this is a discussion about why Catholics tend to vote for Hillary over Obama, it is a legitimate discussion. The State obviously agrees with you about women having the right to choose what happens to their bodies, but the life that grows in the womb of a pregnant woman is a human life that is separate from the mother and totally dependent on her for life and protection. In a sense, the mother is the steward of the human life growing inside of her. She does not have the right to destroy that life at will, even though the State has given her legal permission to do so. According to most religions, that human life even at conception was created by God and belongs to God and the mother will answer to God for how she cared for and protected that life – or destroyed it for selfish reasons. You are free to disagree all you want but do not call this position nonsense. It is held by millions of Christians and non-Christians.

  • shadou:
    “And what in the hell is “partial birth abortion”?
    Partial birth abortion is when the child is about to be born, e.g., the head of the baby is coming out of the womb and then the child is killed as it emerges nearly full born. That barbaric procedure is best called infanticide.

  • Alex

    Sorry, but it’s still nonsense, I don’t care how many people believe it. You cannot and may not decide for others what their lives will be, unless it’s by force. You cannot take women’s choices away from them without denying them their right to live as moral beings, which depends ENTIRELY on choice. Other people’s morality is not yours to decide, particularly in such personal matters as reproduction.

  • DickeyFuller said:

    There are a lot of young and/or secular society members who are seeking salvation, have not been exposed to it in a regular church situation and, thus, flock to Obama.

    That’s interesting – I was exposed to a Catholic church situation from the time I was born. I’m not looking for this ‘salvation’ you mention. And yet I support Obama. Do you have some examples to support your assertion?

    He was very smart to realize that many are seeking an “answer” and he has offered himself as “the answer.”

    That’s quite a straw statement. Show me what statements Obama has made that show he’s ‘offered himself as “the answer.” ‘

    That’s why his people idolize him and can’t see his flaws. He is their “Lord”.

    I support him because he’s run a solid campaign and has a lot of really good ideas on how to address this country’s problems. Certainly the gas-tax kerfuffle this week is a clear demonstration of the old style of politics (Clinton/McCain). Every time there is some new manfactured crisis created by the media, Obaman seems to come out of it just fine. This week is no exception. But show me where Obama supporters en masse have called him ‘their “Lord”.’ This is one supporter who hasn’t.

    Anyone who grew up in the Catholic church recognized his angle and ran away from it as fast as they could.

    Wow. So how do explain the Catholic supporters on this thread alone who’ve indicated they are supporting Obama? If anyone has been running on an angle, it would be Senator Clinton. One day she supports NAFTA, the next day she doesn’t…

    Both Clinton and McCain are both virtually secular candidates.

    Really? Hillary Clinton is a Methodist, and John McCain is a Baptist. Both seem hardly secular to me. You sure about your statement? What is your evidence?

    By the way, isn’t a separation of church and state what we’ve been yelling about for the past 7.5 years?

    I think people have been advocating such a notion for much longer than that.

    The thought of having to listen to him do that black preacher rhetoric for a week, must less 4 years, is a depressing thought.

    What rhetoric are you talking about? Give me an example.

    I can’t stand him.

    I think that’s pretty clear. However I also believe that’s the only statement you’ve made in this post that I think has any validity.

    And . . . most importantly, he is not qualified to be president. That’s why Clinton’s people won’t vote for him.

    Why is he not qualified? How about some examples?

    It’s not that he’s black. It’s that he’s green.

    He doesn’t look green to me. He looks like he will be the next President of the United States this year.

  • Dickey–

    I’ve heard this absurd argument before– that somehow secular Obama supporters see him as a “lord” or worship him because we want redemption or some other cockamamie religious nonsense. I wasn’t raised IN ANY religious tradition– I come from a family of agnostics/atheists– and I don’t want “redemption” or any other thing that people who come from religious homes might have been programmed to desire. I don’t want or need a religious figure in my life– I’m happy with things right here, as they are, on earth. I don’t believe in a “higher power” because I do not believe that one exists. God is as real to me as Santa Claus is to you. It’s a child-like fantasy of parental protection.

    I don’t know why it’s so hard for some people to understand what we see in OBama. We support him. We like him. We respect and admire his intellect and approach to politics. We think he’s something different about him. We also view him as 100% HUMAN and not some kind of messiah.

    Hillary supporters and Obama supporters have one thing in common– passion about our candidates. One is not really any nuttier than they other, nor is there any “worship” involved. There is a lot of hope wrapped in who they are and what they represent for this country’s future.

  • I spent 8 years in DC, working inside the beltway in a large multi-issue political organization, in an environment where everyone I knew either worked for a political non-profit or on The Hill. I’ve been a political junkie all my life but ended up leaving the beltway because of how out-of-touch and insular it was– it was totally soul-sucking. It really wasn’t about anything but serving the machine and the people who are at the controls. The Clintons represent that mentality, Obama does not. Obama does not have decades of allegiences that need to be repaid, the Clintons do. This is not moving forward, this is just more of the same system we have now.

    I was in DC when the Clintons were in office– I was there during impeachment as well. It was awful what they went through. The VRWC was real. However, they were far from perfect, in fact, by the time they left the WH they were pretty much corrupted by it all– I think they figured after all they had been through that they could do whatever they wanted. (11th hour pardons, Lincoln Bedroom fund-raising crap, etc.) I don’t really blame them, but I don’t want them back either.

    It is time for a fresh slate, a fresh perspective, and someone who isn’t interested in perpetuating the dynamic that already exists in DC– that is what Obama represents to me.

  • ZFP

    I couldn’t agree more. Part of Obama’s appeal is his LACK of Washington “experience”, which is insular, focused only on horse-trading, and includes corruption and malaise about America. I hope the November election brings a whole lot more “inexperienced” legislators into Washington and the old-timers will mentor them but be willing to look at fresh new ideas as well.

  • How very insulting and disrespectful to Catholics to assume they are not voting for Obama because of racism. It’s not very much less insulting to assume it’s an age thing, either. Do those of you who support Obama really believe you’re the only people capable of embracing change and innovation?

    As a christian but not a Catholic I can understand why the unbelievable stance from Obama on it being perfectly ok to murder babies who are born alive would be a major turnoff all by itself.
    I don’t believe that abortion is the real issue here, and apparently neither does NARAL, who did not oppose the legislation to stop such evil. The same is true for Clinton and a host of left of center politicians who all supported this legislation in Congress.

    Here’s a link to the story
    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=24354

    Here it is again, from a Catholic publication
    http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=26868

    That’s only one example of his extremism, and most Catholics do tend to not be extremists.

  • Annie

    ….most Catholics do tend to not be extremists.

    Well, I think it’s pretty extreme to hide pedophiles for decades in the church myself and still support the structure that has enabled this sexual abuse of children. But maybe that’s just me.

  • Maybe Catholics are like most of the working class – they recognize bulls..t when they hear it. Obama does a nice canned speech (thanks to the oratory skills he got from Wright) but he couldn’t answer a spontaneous question if his life depended on it. He is intellectually lazy, easily bored and incredibly arrogant. He can’t articulate a plan or policy and falls back on trite phrases like “we are who can”. Maybe reasonably insightful voters are worried about such a man running the country. They should be!

  • The vast majority of Catholic laypeople are extremists because a few people in the church heirarchy covered up wrongdoing? What??? That makes no sense.

  • Why won’t Catholics vote for Obama? Ya know, it might just be possible to overthink this. Just throwing this out there, but…how ’bout because he’s a lousy candidate?

  • Let me give it a crack at it:
    The Catholic Church in the U.S. has received in recent years a considerable influx of Catholics from Latin America, creating a revival of sorts within the Church. These Catholics experienced in their own countries the pernicious influence of the “liberation theology” movement as currently spoused by Wright/Obama. This movement began in Brazil in the sixties, by marxist priests, and tried to justify itself by focusing in the “now” instead of the “thereafter” and explaining everything in economic terms and class struggle.

    There was a big debate within the Church on the question whether you could be a Christian and a marxist at the same time. It was beatifully answered by the German theologan Hans Kung in his seminal book “On Being a Christian”: “even though there might be many common elements between a Christian and a marxist,
    in the end it boils down to two irreconciliable differences; a marxist would do anything to achieve his ends, even resorting to lies and violence, and a marxist has no use or understanding for the mandate of love” (love one another as I have loved you, in that everyone shall see you are my disciples…).

    The Church members understood these teachings and rejected marxism, and the lesson was learned. So when someone like Obama comes along, who adopted marxism from his college professors and liberation theology from Rev. Wright, and tries to sell this message, no matter how “soft” that sell is, it is outright rejected, even though they perhaps cannot explain specifically why,
    I hope to have contributed to this discussion.

  • #54-ZFP—“-I don’t know why it’s so hard for some people to understand what we see in OBama. We support him. We like him. We respect and admire his intellect and approach to politics. We think he’s something different about him.”…Perhaps the “Audacity of Integrity”?

  • From my reading of this post I am rather atypical as a Catholic as I am an Obama supporter. In fact, my father, my sisters, and one of my brothers support Obama as well. I would caution against reading too much religion into this isse.

  • Karl at Protein Wisdom has a couple of posts that really get to the heart of the matter, including one from today.

  • The Catholic church is for the most part a very conservative organization with very rigorous rules about what you can and cannot do. Not many gray issues, most are either right or wrong. Hillary is the established candidate, been there for years and everyone pretty much knows who she is. Her personal problems I think are in her favor with Catholics. Obama on the other hand bristles with unknowns. Looks too young and inexperienced. A lot of unsavory characters in his background. Some would call him a far left radical liberal. Way too risky! Actually I think the Catholics would be more comfortable with a moderate candidate, either a Democrat or a Republican. Hillary or McCain…but not Obama.

  • The Catholic church is for the most part a very conservative organization with very rigorous rules about what you can and cannot do.”________Really,I guess the pedophile priests didn’t get the memo? ———- “Hillary is the established candidate, been there for years and everyone pretty much knows who she is. Her personal problems I think are in her favor with Catholics”————–What, being a liar is helping her with Catholics? Bosniagate, Whitewater,the Rose law firm,Peter F,Paul vs. Clinton ( a case of admitted fraud involving over a million$$ in campaign contributions to her Senate campaign,scheduled to go to court in L.A. shortly-google it yourself)-I’m KNOW there are lots of other issues. Too risky you say? Obama? Oh,mama! Are they putting kool aid in the Holy Water fonts now,Mary?

  • As a relatively new Catholic (but a person old enough to have particpated in VIetnam), I find it hard to believe that a Catholic can vote for either Democrat candidate. The sanctity of life is a deep and fundamental value in the church. One could disagree with the Church about *when* a child becomes alive (the Church says at conception), but the Democrats, including Hillary, have furiously opposed any relaxation on abortion “freedoms,” no matter the age of the fetus.

    Thus the Democratic politicians are not just “pro choice” – they are pro-choice extremists. I suspect that if all Catholics knew what the real abortion laws/jurisprudence has been in the US, and the continued complicity of the Democratic party in this extremism, many more would reject both of these candidates.

    On a couple of other topics. How can one be pro-life and pro-war and a Catholic? It’s simple – it’s called the Doctrine of Just War. Catholicism would not have survived if it denied all war. So we could argue about whether a particular war is just or not, but there is nothing anti-Catholic about being for a particular military action – even if the Church (but NOT its doctrine) is against it.

    Finally, a few idiots have brought up the priest scandal. It always happens when the Church is mentioned. That problem was a failure of the church leadership in the US, strongly aided by an ideological movement justifying homoseuality in the piesthood and a misplaced belief in the curative powers of pop psychology and prayer. Almost all of the “pedophilia” cases were actually homosexual statutory rape – you can find that out if you get beyond the simple narrative of the mainstream media. So … give it a break. Your selective attacks on the Catholic church on this issue are a form of bigotry just as offensive as racism.

  • The truth of the matter is simple. The Catholic Church is older and more ethnic. I grew up in a blue collar Italian home and attended Catholic School K-12. My parents were like most people in our small Ohio steel mill community. They resented Afro Americans. They resented other ethnic groups. We also attended different Catholic Churches based on our nationalities. Each ethnic group had their own church and really didn’t like people from other nationalities. Italians, Irish, Slovak, Greek, Croatian, Lebanese etc didn’t get along with one another. They were always fighting one another for jobs. Big cities were the same. Each ethnic group lived in their own pocket of people. I went to a Catholic High school with 2,000 kids. We had three Afro Americans in the student body. Does that tell you anything?…tuition was only $50.00.

    I am 60 years old and support Senator Obama. He has the best character of the candidates. I am a good Catholic but really don’t understand Catholics. The Catholics in our area would rather vote for John McCain and John Hagee “The Catholic Church is the Great White Whore and Cult” than Senator Obama. Clinton only needs to show up in these communities. She looks exactly like the women you sit next to on Sundays.

  • My NY Catholic relatives are very left-wing–pro-choice, anti-war, pro-civil rights and totally in the tank for Hillary. One of my cousins is virtually a Hillary groupie. At least for them being conservative is not the explanation.

    I have no idea why Obama loses the Catholic vote but my idle speculation would be that Obama sounds like a southern Baptist preacher. He’s overtly religious not in content but in speaking style. If you don’t share the sound of his religion it’s a turn-off.

    For a guy who is supposed to be a unifyer Obama loses a lot of groups by huge margins–he loses the Jewish vote, the Catholic vote, the Hispanic vote, the Asian vote, and senior citizen vote.

    He’s also lost the vote of people who are offended at being called racist.

  • MY FELLOW “BITTER”, STUPID, WORKING CLASS PEOPLE 🙂

    If you think like Barack Obama, that WORKING CLASS PEOPLE are just a bunch of “BITTER”!, STUPID, PEASANTS, Cash COWS!, and CANNON FODDER. 🙁

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think Barack Obama with little or no experience would be better than Hillary Clinton with 35 years experience.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with no experience can fix an economy on the verge of collapse better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) led the greatest economic expansion, and prosperity in American history.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with no experience fighting for universal health care can get it for you better than Hillary Clinton. Who anticipated this current health care crisis back in 1993, and fought a pitched battle against overwhelming odds to get universal health care for all the American people.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with no experience can manage, and get us out of two wars better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) went to war only when he was convinced that he absolutely had to. Then completed the mission in record time against a nuclear power. AND DID NOT LOSE THE LIFE OF A SINGLE AMERICAN SOLDIER. NOT ONE!

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with no experience saving the environment is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) left office with the greatest amount of environmental cleanup, and protections in American history.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with little or no education experience is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) made higher education affordable for every American. And created higher job demand and starting salary’s than they had ever been before or since.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with no experience will be better than Hillary Clinton who spent 8 years at the right hand of President Bill Clinton. Who is already on record as one of the greatest Presidents in American history.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that you can change the way Washington works with pretty speeches from Obama, rather than with the experience, and political expertise of two master politicians ON YOUR SIDE like Hillary and Bill Clinton..

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think all those Republicans voting for Obama in the Democratic primaries, and caucuses are doing so because they think he is a stronger Democratic candidate than Hillary Clinton. 🙂

    Best regards

    jacksmith… Working Class 🙂

    p.s. You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you don’t know that the huge amounts of money funding the Obama campaign to try and defeat Hillary Clinton is coming in from the insurance, and medical industry, that has been ripping you off, and killing you and your children. And denying you, and your loved ones the life saving medical care you needed. All just so they can make more huge immoral profits for them-selves off of your suffering…

    You see, back in 1993 Hillary Clinton had the audacity, and nerve to try and get quality, affordable universal health care for everyone to prevent the suffering and needless deaths of hundreds of thousands of you each year. 🙂

    Approx. 100,000 of you die each year from medical accidents from a rush to profit by the insurance, and medical industry. Another 120,000 of you die each year from treatable illness that people in other developed countries don’t die from. And I could go on, and on…

    OBAMA AIDE: “WORKING-CLASS VOTERS NOT KEY FOR DEMOCRATS” 😮

    DEBATE! DEBATE!! DEBATE!!!…

  • DEBATE! DEBATE!! DEBATE!!!

    It’s time for everyone to face the truth. Barack Obama has no real chance of winning the national election in November at this time. His crushing defeat in Pennsylvania makes that fact crystal clear. His best, and only real chance of winning in November is on a ticket with Hillary Clinton as her VP.

    Hillary Clinton seemed almost somber at her Pennsylvania victory speech. As if part of her was hoping Obama could have proved he had some chance of winning against the republican attack machine, and their unlimited money, and resources.

    But it is absolutely essential that the democrats take back the Whitehouse in November. America, and the American people are in a very desperate condition now. And the whole World has been doing all that they can to help keep us propped up.

    Hillary Clinton say’s that the heat, and decisions in the Whitehouse are much tougher than the ones on the campaign trail. But I think Mr. Obama faces a test of whether he has what it takes to be a commander and chief by facing the difficult facts, and the truth before him. And by doing what is best for the American people by dropping out of the race, and offering his whole hearted assistance to Hillary Clinton to help her take back the Whitehouse for the American people, and the World.

    Mr. Obama is a great speaker. And I am confident he can explain to the American people the need, and wisdom of such a personal sacrifice for them. It should be clear to everyone by now that Hillary Clinton is fighting her heart out for the American people. She has known for a long time that Mr. Obama can not win this November. You have to remember that the Clinton’s have won the Whitehouse twice before. They know what it takes.

    If Mr. Obama fails his test of commander and chief we can only hope that Hillary Clinton can continue her heroic fight for the American people. And that she prevails. She will need all the continual support and help we can give her. She may fight like a superhuman. But she is only human.

    Sen. Hillary Clinton: “You know, more people have now voted for me than have voted for my opponent. In fact, I now have more votes than anybody has ever had in a primary contest for a nomination. And it’s also clear that we’ve got nine more important contests to go.”

    Sincerely

    Jacksmith… Working Class 🙂

  • But what else is there? Why is Obama struggling to connect with Catholic voters?

    There is no “Catholic vote”. The community is too diverse. It split 52%-47% for Bush in 2004, just like the rest of the country . Hillary is very popular among Hispanics, who remember Bill as a friend to minorities (She would have done extremely well with blacks too, if her opponent were a white man). She also has regional strength in NY, NJ, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts which have the largest concentrations of Catholics in the country.

  • Most Catholics identify ethnically, Irish, Italian, Polish, Hispanic; groups Bill Clinton did a lot for, e.g. the Irish Peace Process. And there is a strong tradition for rewarding politicians who have a record of delivering for such communities.

    And, Obama gets it double in the religious/racial intermix, some think he’s Muslim but when they are confronted with the reality that he’s an Evangelical Christian, they are not comfortable with that either, in part because of the off-the-wall preacher, Rev. Wright, and in part because, unlike Hillary Clinton, who is also an Evangelical Christian, Obama wears his religion on his sleeve.

    He has to, of course, in part to quell the very unfair “Muslim” rumors. But that also traps him, and doubly so because of Rev. Wright. “Whatever he is, he’s not much like what we are”. Not as much, at least, as Hillary Clinton is, and race comes in here too.

    I’m Catholic, but I’ve worked in the black community and find nothing odd , or threatening about Obama’s religion or even Rev. Wright. The great coalition of my generation, was between the Kennedy’s and a black preacher whose first two names were “Martin Luther”. And Catholic Democrats have no trouble voting for Jewish ones.

    Obama needs to find ways to reach out more to Catholic groups, but most will vote for him (Please God!) in November.

  • So, after all we’ve been through as a species, it still comes down to race, and religion, and gender. It appears natural selection isn’t keeping up.

  • Latin Catholics have less of a problem with women leaders than other Christian religions. Maybe it’s because they put so much emphasis on the Virgin Mary for spiritual guidance. Maybe it has less to do with race and more with gender

  • What do you expect when Obama thinks that ethnic working class Americans are bitter racists who hate immigrants? Whatever he thought he was saying with that remark, it sounded to everyone else like he doesn’t know much about people unlike himself. How is he going to appeal to Catholics that way, or any of the other groups different from himself (e.g., Jews, the elderly, Asian Americans)?

    Obama seems to think that Hispanics are nothing more than an immigration issue. He doesn’t understand their deep patriotism and pride about being American. He doesn’t understand their strong work ethic. Hispanics have experienced racism and discrmination but solve their problems by working harder and relying on family, not blaming anyone. Hispanics eschew handouts while African Americans (as exemplified by Obama’s programs on their behalf, which is the major portion of his legislative record) seem to be always begging and demanding that others help them. The self-righteous attitude Obama and his supporters have about clean politics makes no sense to Hispanics as an issue or even as a virtue. Hispanics do not particularly value higher education as a route to success and are not impressed that Obama is an attorney. They respect hard work and accomplishments, not words or promises (regarded with suspicion). I believe that Obama’s social justice accomplishments and lack of experience work against him with many Hispanics.

  • I agree with many comments that the Catholic vote can be mostly explained by other demographic factors (particularly race, since Catholics are overwhelmingly white and Hispanic and both groups strongly favor Clinton over Obama).

    There may be a small increment of Catholics against Obama that can’t be explained away by other variables. My take is this: Protestants, who are the overwhelming majority of American voters, typically don’t have strong ecclesiastical structures and authority. Catholics have the Pope and the Vatican; American Protestants have, well, America. I think that U.S. Protestants have unconsciously viewed the Presidency as a quasi-religious institution, sort of the way the Queen is the head of the Church of England. Obama’s rhetoric and almost messianic appeal fits well with the way many Protestants view the character of the Presidency.

    Catholics, on the other hand, tend to recoil from such religious undertones in a presidential candidate — particularly given the history of anti-Catholic prejudice and discrimination in this country. For some Catholics, I suppose, Clinton is a ‘safer’ candidate, irrespective of positions on particular issues.

    In the interest of full disclosure, I’m a white Catholic Democrat. I voted grudgingly for Clinton in the primary, but I will be voting for McCain regardless of which candidate the Democratic Party eventually nominates. I’m no fan of McCain’s, but I can’t stomach either Hillary or Obama. Obama scares me a little more, but that has nothing to do with race — probably has more to do with the Harvard lens with which he views the world than with his past affiliation of convenience with Rev. Wright. Catholics (and most of the rest of us) have more to hear from the intellectual bilge coming out of places like Cambridge than they do from any of the black churches.

  • Virtually all blacks in the US are Protestants, with very few who are Catholic. Hillary runs better with whites, Latinos, and older voters of all types and those demos overlap with Catholics who attend church. Also, Barack is way more associated with favoring partial birth abortions, something even pro-choice Catholics find disgusting.

    I predicted the Pope’s visit would cause Catholic voters in PA to turn out in droves against Barack and I was right. Contrast the Pope saying “God bless America” at Yankee Stadium with Jeremiah Wright begging God to damn America. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out Barack’s problem with Catholics.

  • I should note that one demo group Barack did carry in PA was agnostics/atheists by 22 points. They recognized one of their own (after he made his bitter remark). He grew up an atheist and was baptized into Christianity at Trinity in 1988 only to get street cred and because he knew America would never elect an open atheist.

  • a lot of posts staing the reasons catholics are not voting for Obama,is the exprei ence factor, and the Rev. Wright factor. If experience is the reason, I guess alot of people of the catholic faith didnt vote for JFK, who had less experience in congress than Obama,plus he was younger. As for the Rev. Wright and the claim that Obama had to have known Rev. Wrights or the church’s views, I dont recall seeing people leaving in droves when the child molestation cases were hitting the catholic church, parishers still in the church,knowing that they support a religion that condone pediphilla.
    Do we actually have people that forget that this country has a foundation based on hate against people of color,even the Constitution didnt have Black people in mind when it was written, we were “Property” not even human. We had to get our education from our church, because it was illegal for Black people to go to school.
    My vote is for Obama. btw, Obama is biracial, he is for ALL AMERICANS.He has a history of working across party lines,not just Democrats. Time for America to move into the future.

  • How much longer should African Americans play second fiddle to a group of people
    who dont care to come together as ONE TRUE NATION. So far, if people cant find a true to debate, they insult, and their true colors come out. People forget that Sen.Obama beat Team Clinton in 11 straight races before Team Clinton realized that they are not predestined to be in the White House, and Obama beat her by double digits in EVERY race, in 9 of the 11 Hillary was beaten by 15points or more.
    We who support Sen. Obama dont plan to roll over and “give” the nomination to a person who likes to change the rules every week.
    Obama wants to bring All Americans together, Hillary want to insul and be meanspirited. Not all African Americans think Bill Clinton is good for America.
    The Democratic Party has taken People of color and the Poor for granted for the last time.

  • A man who exposes his wife and children, on purpose, to vile speech and wild conspiracy theories to invoke fear and hatred is not a good man.

  • The answer is easy: Catholics are predominantly white, and the white vote leans heavily to Clinton. That explains most of the Catholic vote in favor of Clinton. Add to that the fact that non-believers favor Obama, and therefore with Catholics, who are obviously not non-believers, you get the full explanation of the Catholic vote in favor of Obama.

  • Hispanics eschew handouts while African Americans (as exemplified by Obama’s programs on their behalf, which is the major portion of his legislative record) seem to be always begging and demanding that others help them.

    Well, Mare, next time you start whining about how people unfairly slap a racist label on you after all you did was make a few observations about the lazy blacks vs. the noble Latinos, I suspect you’re going to regret posting after drinking last night.

    The rest of us thank you for taking your previously displayed bias, contempt and hostility toward African Americans to a more open and frank level. We’ve got your number, babe.

  • As a total outsider when it comes to religion– raisied in an atheist family with no religious traditions whatsoever– it is threads like these that remind me that for all the good that religion can do the bottom line is this: religion breeds and justifies tribal divisions between people better than anything else.

    I personally just don’t get it. All Christians worship from the same book and believe in the same sky fairy but their biggest beef seems to be with people who are the most like them but who do things in a different way. If only more religious people followed the wisdom of Kevin Smith’s Dogma— from the character Rufus, Jesus’ 13th disciple:

    [I]t bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name – wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it… I think it’s better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can’t generate. Life becomes stagnant.

  • Hispanics eschew handouts while African Americans (as exemplified by Obama’s programs on their behalf, which is the major portion of his legislative record) seem to be always begging and demanding that others help them.

    Of course race has nothing to do with it.

    If Mary is any indication, ethnic working class Americans are bitter racists. She certainly seems to be.

  • A man who exposes his wife and children, on purpose, to vile speech and wild conspiracy theories to invoke fear and hatred is not a good man. — Iowa Dem Voter

    A man who exposes his wife to… WTF?

    I didn’t realize my job was to filter what my wife sees or hears — she’s a fully functioning human being quite capable of thinking for herself.

    As for the children, we exposed our daughter to all sorts of ideas we didn’t agree with, but we taught her how to deal with them. By age 14 she was more capable of dealing with the world than you appear to be.

  • ZoeFP

    Those religious structures… Every religion in the world has begun with a pure passionate idea, with or without mysticism. Most of the authors of various religions had eureka moments when they connected the best in human beings to a perceived order in the universe, or what they knew of it.

    And from that moment on, that glowing idea/ideal began to deteriorate as others were attracted to it and began to codify it and “structure” it. Only unusually free human beings who question “the way things are” have those eureka moments, and they can be about almost anything, science, music, all the arts, anything that suggests mystery.

    Well, the point is that I agree with you — what develops over time is NEVER reflective of the original “idea” or gestalt, simply because those who followed didn’t have the same original idea and can’t grasp it. So we have huge numbers of people who call themselves “Christians” who fell in love with what was presented through the structure that was degenerative, put in place by the self-serving, not the original idea. This is how peace-loving inclusive religions are corrupted and become murderous and xenophobic religions.

    I’m sure I’ve seen more loving-kindness, wisdom, and inclusiveness in people who weren’t thinking about religion at all than those who were.

  • “We have just enough religion to make us hate one another,but not enough religion to make us love one another.” Jonathan Swift

  • I am 40+ non-practicing Catholic Democrat. I voted for Hillary. I will not vote for Obama, because I CANNOT be part of electing a man that doesn’t believe in the foundation of our GREAT NATION…One Nation, Under God…

    That being said, if Hillary drops out, I WILL vote for McCain, the first and hopefully last time I would ever HAVE to vote for another republican.

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