Why putting a woman on the ticket may raise the ire of Clinton supporters

At first blush, this doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. Many of Hillary Clinton’s supporters were women, many of whom were excited by the prospect of having a woman head a major-party presidential ticket for the first time. Clinton, of course, came up just short of her goal.

Now, however, it appears that Barack Obama is considering a different woman, Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, as his running mate. Good news for those who want to break down gender barriers? Well, maybe not — Clinton supporters who were energized by the idea having a woman on the Democratic ticket might be livid with Obama if he chooses a woman for the Democratic ticket.

It’s counter-intuitive, I know. Slate’s Christopher Beam explains the four reasons why Clinton backers don’t want a woman on the ticket, they want a specific woman on the ticket.

She’s not Hillary. “Unacceptable” was the word used by Allida Black, a longtime Clinton backer who is now pushing for an Obama/Clinton ticket. “It’s got to be Hillary.” […]

She’s a woman. Picking Sebelius wouldn’t be an olive branch, says Black; it would be an insult: “If Senator Obama has a problem with women, putting a woman on a ticket is not going to get him their votes.” Here it gets paradoxical. It would be OK if Obama picked a man — that’s just business as usual. “Jim Webb is not a slap in the face to Hillary,” Black says. “Sebelius is.” […]

She’s inexperienced (like Obama). Sebelius may have logged 22 years in elected office as a congresswoman, insurance commissioner, and governor. But little of that time was spent on the national stage, several Clinton supporters pointed out…. Her list of accomplishments is, in fact, quite long … but Clinton supporters doubt it trumps Hillary’s. […]

Sebeli-who? If tapped, Kathleen Sebelius would become the face that launched a thousand Wikipedia searches. To most Americans, “Sebelius” probably sounds more like a Harry Potter villain than a prominent politician. For a nominee who long struggled with name recognition, Obama could use a household name as his veep.

Some of these arguments seem more compelling than others.

The reason I’m inclined to disagree with the concerns, though, is that Sebelius really is a compelling choice. Let’s pretend, just for the sake of discussion, that Hillary Clinton was not a presidential candidate this year. Obviously, she was, and she was very successful and had a tremendous impact, but let’s just say she didn’t run this time.

If, under this scenario, Barack Obama won the nomination and considered Sebelius for the ticket, I suspect most Clinton supporters, most notably feminists and those of us concerned with gender equality, would be delighted. In fact, there’d be legitimate questions if he didn’t consider her as a finalist.

She is, after all, a popular and successful governor of a red state in a key region with a very impressive record.

Sebelius has been a strong supporter of children’s rights, expanding unemployment benefits, raising the minimum wage, and health care reform. She refused to accept donations from insurance companies when she ran for insurance commissioner. She publicly scolded President Bush for diverting the National Guard to Iraq when it was badly needed for disaster relief at home. She angered conservatives (and at least one archbishop) when she vetoed legislation that would have strengthened the state’s late-term abortion ban. […]

As for experience, Sebelius has accomplished a thing or two in her 60 years. Most famously, she prevented an Indiana-based health insurer from buying out Blue Cross-Blue Shield of Kansas, arguing that the shift would raise premiums. She vetoed legislation for building two big coal plants in western Kansas — four times. She pushed a $500 million education funding package through a deeply divided legislature. And she eliminated a $1.1 billion debt without raising taxes.

Who’s seriously going to argue that Sebelius shouldn’t at least be considered as a running mate? Worse, given Sebelius’ record, why would women who support Clinton argue that Sebelius should be discounted as a possibility because of her gender? (I’m referring to Allida Black’s argument that Obama would insult Clinton supporters by picking a qualified woman, instead of a qualified man.)

Now, Clinton did run, and she brings a lot to the table as a VP candidate. What troubles me, though, is the notion that Clinton’s campaign necessarily disqualifies every other woman as a possibility. Sebelius and Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano may be women, but they’re apparently the wrong women.

It seems to me this gets the legacy of Clinton’s campaign backwards. Clinton proved that a woman can compete, succeed, and as she put it a week ago, make it “unremarkable to think that a woman can be the president of the United States.” Clinton blazed a trail for the nation to follow.

But it’s madness to think that no other woman but her belongs on that trail.

Well, there’s just no arguing with women. JUSTKIDDING!

What’s the political benefit of having Sebelius on the ticket? Attracting women voters would be offset by the Hillaryite resentment. What else would motivate Obama to do it then?

  • She’s not Hillary. “Unacceptable” was the word used by Allida Black, a longtime Clinton backer who is now pushing for an Obama/Clinton ticket. “It’s got to be Hillary.”

    What this means is that someone other than Hillery could become the first female president. I think that’s why it’s unacceptable to them.

  • It’s mind boggling to assume that “women” only want Hillary.

    On some level this asserts that any other woman would not be excellent.

    I feel it’s far more important for the VP to reflect the values of the President. Someone who stands up for ordinary folks and is not susceptible to the influence of multi-national corporations would be closer to Obama than Hillary.

  • I think Barack Obama should avoid all of this trouble, and instead pick a white male with some sort of military credentials as his running mate.

    We already see that some Americans are having trouble accepting an African American as their president. It may be too much to ask of them to vote for a black man AND a woman for the top two White House jobs. Picking Hillary Clinton would mean that Republicans would spend the majority of their energies attacking her and her husband during the campaign. And if picking another woman like Sebelius would only incite the ire of Clinton backers, then its not worth the trouble.

    Obama is better off going with somebody like Wesley Clark as his VP–a guy with outstanding character, military credentials that outshine anything McSame can claim, a willingness to play attack dog when necessary, and no obvious baggage for GOP hatemongers to use against their joint ticket.

  • The only way to find out is to poll the Clinton supporters. I think you’d find overwhelming resentment on their part to any other woman on the ticket. How that would translate into an actual loss of votes in the election is impossible to predict, but I don’t think it would be insignificant.

    Look, it’s very simple. Millions of women supported Hillary with a great deal of sweat and passion. Snubbing Hillary for another would be a slap in the face, an insult. I don’t know why people can’t grasp that. It’s a personal, emotional thing. You can’t reason with strong feelings and sentiments, no matter how hard you try.

    What’s important is not what the non-Hillary people think, but what the Hillary people think. I assume Obama’s campaign staff is sophisticated enough to understand the firestorm such a choice could provoke, and will do their own internal polling and interviews to measure it.

  • Are we still wondering why ABC assigned a couple reporters to cover the Clintons for another four plus months? How else do they promote division in the Dem party in a way that makes McCain seem viable?

  • There are still back-room machinations in the Clinton campaign to become POTUS. That is why they have made “traitor” lists. If she ultimately fails to pull off a “un-suspension” and push for nomination in August she hopes to be the Cheney behind the throne and deal dirt behind Obama’s back, undermine him and be crowned POTUS.

    Obama is receiving wide support by women voters, but Hillary’s most ardent supporters want Hillary in office because they have been promised much and want their return on investment. If Sebelius is nominated, even if Obama loses in 2008, Hillary will have an even more difficult road in 2012 against an experienced member of the executive branch . . . who she can’t use the gender/race/culture cards on. Sebelius is no joke and I’m sure she has her own mid-west machinery, though not on a par with Clinton. Add Obama’s machine and it’s a blow-out. Also, her rebuttal to Bush at his State of the Union was incredible. If I had to get bad news about Obama or our Nation, I would want it to be her.

    And that’s the point: machinery. In 2 Obama terms and 2 Sebelius terms, no one will even remember why Hillary was relavant. All power would gravitate away from the Rendell/Strickland/Clinton brand. Return on investment. Something to lose. These are the motivations.

  • Memo to Clinton supporters: 1. Politics is not about you and your feelings.
    2. Anyone who identifies that much with an American pol, even one as talented and dedicated as H. Clinton, is in for a lot of sadness and disillusionment. Before you ask, that goes for Obama supporters, too. Think a candidate is the best choice? Great! Think the candidate validates YOU in some way? Nuts.

  • That is CRAZY! Does Clinton even want to be Obama’s VP? I doubt it.

    I voted Clinton in the primary, but I think Kathleen Sebelius would be an excellent choice for Obama’s VP! She’s stood up for abortion rights in Kansas for years, against some of the craziest anti-choicers in the country.

    I don’t think picking her would be a slap in the face to Clinton at all. Clinton already has a great job in the Senate. She doesn’t need the VP slot as some kind of consolation prize.

    Sebelius was re-elected in ’06, so she’s on her way out in Kansas. Picking her as VP would be a net gain for women in federal government and in history.

  • I’m in agreement with JKP@4.

    I think he should just pick a white man with military history (NOT Webb, we need him in the Senate). That he should also be an attack dog might help, too.

  • is it really surprising that hardcore clinton supporters only want clinton? the campaign was never about women or gender equality it was always about hillary clinton. Picking a different woman because she is an excellent candidate is fine with me but so is picking a white guy or an asian person. what matters is that they can take over if something happens to Obama and that they are an effective campaigner able to destroy gop talking points.

    actually the only person i would not want is hillary because i dont think she could ever play second fiddle. she would be too much of a distraction. thats why the media wants that ticket, endless drama and an easy to sell story line.

  • I actually agree with their logic, as picking a woman VP just seems like cheap pandering. Even if she is the best choice, it would seem desperate and like he thinks Clinton supporters are idiots who can be tricked into accepting a different woman. Even if that’s not the case, that’s how it’d look.

    Besides, it’d make it a lot more difficult for him to pick Clark as his VP and that’d be a huge huge mistake.

  • Dear JMG and trailer park,

    Right on!

    Moreover, it’s a slap in the face to Sebelius to say that she is not as qualified and experienced as Clinton. With the treacherous storms and loss of life in her district and dealing under fir at “3:00 am,” it is a patent lie. It’s wrong to try to demean Sebelius as “less than Clinton.”

    Clinton is not the only person worthey of being called “woman.” Just like Obama and Sebelius, Hillary stands on the shoulders of giants.

  • It is rather insane that after Hillary talked so much about putting so many cracks in the glass ceiling, her supporters would now insist that only she can break it. And it is really shameful of them to think of Sebelius as some affirmative action choice instead of a very qualified person who has a lot of assets. And they accuse Obama supporters of a cult of personality?

    This is probably one of the negatives about the campaign having gone on so long.

  • This pushback, by Clinton supporters, against any woman except for Clinton, demonstrates pretty clearly that these individuals have no interest in supporting a woman. Their interest lies solely in supporting Hillary.

    Nothing Obama does, short of making Clinton his VP, will please them because they’re not fighting for a cause, they’re fighting for a candidate. That’s the only logical conclusion to draw when no woman but Clinton is good enough for them.

  • Actually, the Clinton campaign’s attitude towards women is worth drawing attention to.

    Clinton’s spokespeople treated America’s first elected woman Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, with absolute contempt during the campaign – literally declaring that they did not care what she said or thought when she expressed a reasonable concern about the length of the primary.

    Clinton refused to accept an apology for an insult from one of the most remarkable women working in foreign policy today – Samantha Power – though she has accepted apologies for worse slights from guys like John McCain. Instead her campaign extracted the biggest humiliation they could from Power and made the most capital from her off-the-record remark possible.

    And pro-Clinton bloggers have happily made all the ugliest, sexist insinuations about Michelle Obama that were once directed at Hillary Clinton.

    The reaction to Kathleen Sibelius raises the unasked question once again – why does the Clinton campaign treat women with such contempt?

  • Anyway, Obama already has the support of most Clinton voters (61-19). I don’t think he needs to worry too much about wooing stubborn Clinton supporters.

  • The reason I’m inclined to disagree with the concerns, though, is that Sebelius really is a compelling choice. — CB

    But she’s not Hillary… I’m surprised that the list of reasons didn’t include “women are not interchangeable; we’ve had enough of the ‘all women look the same in the dark’ male BS”.

    I think that at least some of these women, over the long course of the campaign, have crossed the line from “feminist” to “cultist”. They’ve invested so much, emotionally, in her winning, that nothing will really please them, though they might, albeit reluctantly, accept Hillary as VP.

    A choice of a man would not offend them, because they could just wash their hands off of the entire ticket, without a second thought. If Webb were chosen, with his anti-feminist past, all the better; it would simply confirm that they had been right in their judgment of Obama The King Of Misogyny. But, having Obama pick another woman would seem to them like a slap in the face because it means Hillary had been rejected *twice*; first by some voters (who had been manipulated by misogynistic media in love with Obama — according to them) and then again by Obama himself. Also… How can you call yourself a feminist and then vote against a ticket which includes a powerful and mature (not some air-head bimbo) woman on it?

    Hopefully, the cultists are a fringe. The true feminists ought to be pleased, once they learn a bit more about her. For me, the most important question would be: is Sebelius popular *enough* in Kansas to flip it? But then I’m not a feminist; I’m a female human being.

    Dale, @1,
    We’ll let you argue with us as soon as you stop using your supplementary lower brain to produce most of your arguments. So there! 🙂

  • I agree with 4,10 & 12: WES CLARK
    I agree that the constant McSame crap of foreign experience is Trumped by Clark. McSame knows more than Clark about foreign policy: yeah to the last 20%+ sickies who believe only neo-cons know how to properly conduct foreign policy!

    On the woman as VP question that started this blog. I too think it would like pandering, if the woman is not Hillary, and after this primary season, Hillary would have been a great president, but I don’t think she could be a good VP. Tough to be second when the dream has always been to lead.

    GO Obama! Remember, that all the damage that the Repugs have done to the country for the last 7+years, will be wasted if somehow McSame becomes King George II. We need the prospective landslide we are going to get in Congress with an Obama presidency to get this country turned around.

    I love my country, but everyday that King George rules over it, I become less proud, as I think we all should be.

  • Imagine if the situation were reversed, and Clinton was the nominee. Now imagine the reaction if she chose Rangel as her running mate; it would be viewed as a pathetically obvious attempt to pander to angry Obama supporters. That’s exactly why Obama should not pick Sebelius, even though I think she’d be a great choice under different circumstances.

    I’m thinking it’s going to be Wes Clark. He has no significant baggage and would neutralize McCain’s military snobbery.

  • the pro-hillary “feminists” do not want a woman, they want hillary, and only hillary.
    why? because he is “entitled” to it.
    yeah, right.

    this will basically mean that Obama’s safe route will be to chose a pro-hillary man….(Wes Clark or Bill Richardson…opps, sorry, BR is Judas, i forgot)
    then if he manages to lose, the pro-hillary “feminists” can say it was because he didn’t have a woman on the ticket.

  • Dale, @1,
    We’ll let you argue with us as soon as you stop using your supplementary lower brain to produce most of your arguments. So there! 🙂

    Hey, it’s never steered me wrong. Oh, okay, maybe that one time in Tijuana.

  • steve,
    there is only one prob w/ your analogy:
    Obama never said that McCain was better prepared for the presidency than Hillary.
    he never tried to damage her as a general election candidate.

  • I can see why HRC supporters might feel that way. I can’t see putting Clinton on the ticket without having it raise all kinds of questions about who’s in charge of the party and the campaign itself, whether Obama thinks he didn’t “really” win, etc etc. But then again I’m not convinced she’s looking for it either. If Obama offered and she respectfully declined, would that placate the “I’ll vote for McCain if Hillary isn’t on the ticket!” crowd?

    To most Americans, “Sebelius” sounds more like a Harry Potter villain than a prominent politician.

    As opposed to an important 20th Century Finnish composer and the name of the most popular music notation software. Guess that’s just me….

  • Having some Clinton die-hards whining about this just seems so backwards. One of their main whines is about all the sexism Clinton went through, but woe be to Obama if he actually does pick a qualified woman as VP.

    That said, I definitely think Obama should avoid at all costs even the appearance of throwing a bone to these fanatics. Partly because someone that rigid and inflexible doesn’t deserve it anyway, and partly because he shouldn’t give the GOP and McCain the opportunity to claim that he’s being condescending to women. This campaign is going to be ugly enough as it is without handing them even more smear chances on a silver platter.

  • I’m really sick of a tiny portion of the Hillary camp trying to control Obama. Just get off his back, and he’ll make the best choice possible for for HIS Veep in HIS presidential agenda, not hers. It may not be a woman or it may be. Either way is fine.

  • It’s been noted that many folks in the Clinton fundraising/donor community are coming around, grudgingly or otherwise, (some enthusiastically), to accepting Obama as our candidate. It may sound smart alecky to say that all the discontents should just get over it but this isn’t about them alone. This is about the Democratic party, the U.S. of A. and Obama’s good judgment, which I trust.

    There is no Hillary Clinton party. With the shape this country is in, the Hillary supporters are really going to stay home or vote McBush? The groundswell of realization amongst the general population that McBush is a meanspiritedspacedoutpanderificoldcoot is just beginning. Even RepubCo die hards are going to have a hard time voting for McBush.

    Are the Hillary diehards really going to want to be left out of throwing their shovelful of dirt on McBush’s and RepubCo’s cheap pine coffin? Will they hold their heads high when they say that they abstained or voted for McBush when the rest of the world is deliriously celebrating the end of the worststupidestmostcriminal administration to grab and abuse power in America thus far?

    Maybe they will. Maybe they are that self absorbed and self righteous. But they aren’t so big a factor that Obama should be taking their tantrums into consideration. Hell, things are so screwed up, what we need is a co-vice presidency for a term. Sebelius and Clark. If they could work well together, that would be kind of cool.

  • To the die hard Hillary supporters:

    To be Obama’s running mate you have to be vetted. In Hillary’s case Bill would have to be vetted too. Bill has made it known that he will not release info on his Presidential library donors or his business partners.

    So unless the pack of die hards somehow convinces Bill to come forward with that info, which has the potential to be very damaging if it came out in the middle of the general election, there is NO chance Hillary can be on the ticket.

    She (and Bill) have not been vetted. Period.

  • Of course other women should be considered for leadership roles and they obviously have been but the political atmosphere has already been set this year and intentional or not it would still come across as a slight against Clinton to choose another woman as VP…fair or not the stage has been set. As much as this Gov might bring to the table there is a lot she would be taking away. Cherry picking her record does not negate the fact that she is not that liberal or progressive and is very conservative and from a conservative state. I like her but one only needs to review her comments providing the democratic response to Bush’s SOTU address to see how ineffectual a speaker she is.

    Many dems have records similar to Sebelius’ and she has proven to be a very good Gov….but for Kansas. The question would still remain…why her and not Clinton? Is it worth chancing party alienation. Outside of the Hill haters who basically want Clinton banned from politics(so filled with hate that they begin salivating at the mere mention of her name)…many of us who did not support her would still wonder why Sebelius and not Clinton but either way we would still vote for Obama. Go view her SOTU response to get a good glimpse of Sebelius.

    btw…even Christopher Bond R-MO challenged federal control of the state’s national guard and along with Govs. from other states was critical of guard and equipment being out of the country. Sebelius’s shortage just got national press coverage

  • The presidential vetting process is a lot different when you are doing the vetting, or you are the one getting vetted.

    As bkmn says:”She (and Bill) have not been vetted. Period.” Does Bill even want to be vetted; and that is not a slight at the Clintons.

  • “She’s not Hillary. ‘Unacceptable’ was the word used by Allida Black, a longtime Clinton backer who is now pushing for an Obama/Clinton ticket. ‘It’s got to be Hillary.’

    Because?

  • I suspect Obama will consult with Clinton, but he will choose exactly who he thinks is the best fit beyond politics. Sebelius wouldn’t be a political choice, but it would be a competence choice.

    And Hillary will back his choice just like she has backed his nomination.

  • 21.
    On June 14th, 2008 at 3:00 pm, steve said:

    Agreed. That perfectly puts it in perspective.

    The other thing being ignored is asking would this person make a good president? Tim Russert’s sudden departure should put this question in focus. The VP should be a person we would also want for president.

    In 2016, after Obama finishes his two terms we would want a VP that could then get elected president. This should be a big consideration. I just don’t think Clark would make a good president…but I’m open to the possibility. This leaves Webb out as well.

  • It seems that if Obama chose another woman, then he has spurned Hillary. Her supporters think that she deserves an invitation to the dance and it would be wrong for Obama to go with another date. Supporters resent the idea that their candidate (and by extension, themselves) were rejected for another woman, no matter who that other woman is.

  • Sebelius actually has the experience that Clinton claimed, but that her own supporters had trouble finding examples of.

  • Maybe since HIllary came in a very close second for the nomination, fought for it for 17 months, reaised the profile of women in politics to a great degree, a person wouldn’t be too selfish to support her in particular over some other woman.

  • And let me add that women who vote for McCain out of spite are playing into the stereotypes they’re trying to shake. McCain is anti-choice and a real misogynist, as evidenced by his public upbraiding of his wife, using the the crudest language possible.

  • Well, it’s probably good news that someone even noticed a problem with selecting a woman other than Hillary Clinton as the vice-presidential nominee. But clearly this post is very far from understanding how demeaning and hurtful this choice would be. The commenters above who don’t mind letting their woman-hate hang out seem to get this a little better.

    First, the assumption that Hillary’s voters favored her only, or primarily, because she was a woman, is false and invidious. It’s one thing to feel energized, even thrilled, at the prospect of the first female president, but that is very far from supporting any woman any time. Unlike much of Senator Obama’s support, Hillary Clinton’s voters were not motivated by celebrity or novelty. She was supported because she offered the best combination of political issues and relevant skills. She was the best qualified candidate. It became a feminist issue when the demonization set in, magnified with the obvious superficiality of the rationales advanced for Obama. Yes, it’s true; we nasty old women didn’t fall for it. Because nearly every woman, especially if older than 30, has had the experience of being passed over in some endeavor for a less-qualified man – and being insulted with the stupidity of the reasons given for it. The universality of this experience translated into votes. Why should that be a surprise?

    A little honesty among the Obamacans would be helpful in approaching the general election. It should be acknowledged that the better qualified candidate was passed over in favor of the less qualified candidate. The candidate who won the most votes was passed over. The best “man” did not win. We can acknowledge that democracy in the real world is not perfect, but we should at least respect the principle of popular choice and feel some regret when it is violated. Instead, the Obama supporters rely on and defend an undemocratic process that the Democratic Party has evolved over the years – the same process many of the so-called progressives excoriated in 2007. All of a sudden, the “Rulz” became sacrosanct. Votes not so much.

    So, rather than recognize that Senator Clinton was sandbagged for all the wrong reasons – ancient party divisions dating back to Roosevelt and beyond, overt sexism, white guilt and celebrity worship – the Obama faction of the party is now stuck on the horns of the dilemma it created. They cannot admit to the kind of repulsive “old” politics they invoked to defeat her; they must maintain the fiction that Senator Clinton was an evil influence, ran a bad campaign, etc. But at the same time they have to “unite” the party, and gain the support of Senator Clinton’s diverse voters, male and female. The difficulty is obvious.

    Based on the belief that one woman is the same as another, and it’s OK to let women into politics as long as they stay in their place, some in the Obama faction are now advancing the idea that they can win back Clinton voters if they nominate a good, safe woman for vice president. Someone who would not embarrass Obama by the comparison. Gov. Sibelius clearly meets the bill. But it’s a false hope based on a false premise.

    For most Clinton supporters, it does not really matter who is vice president. The blue-collar men who voted for Clinton over Obama may be attracted to McCain, but most of Clinton’s women and Hispanic and African American voters will probably go along with the Obama program simply because the alternative is worse. The only thing the Obamacans should worry about is the margin of the vote. Are they really so sure that, after a bruising Republican-style campaign, they can continue to peddle the “change” business to a decisive win in the general election? That they can maintain a comfortable margin over McCain? That in the end they will not need the cushion of Clinton’s feminist supporters? Their choice of a candidate for vice president will probably hinge on this calculation.

  • Attention Clintonatonic:
    Your candidate lost the nomination. Go over it and on with your life.
    In the meantime, please don’t second guess or criticize who Sen. Obama may or may not choose as his running mate. There are other female candidates just as, if not better suited, to be second-in-command. Holding them back because you’ve been conned into believing in destiny, and that Sen. Clinton’s “destiny” is to be the first female POTUS, is not progressive, it’s stagnation.

  • I’m looking forward to the day when we no longer waste so much time discussing the gender or the skin tone of the candidate and instead focus on their qualities as leaders and as human beings.

  • After reading all of these comments, I still come back to my point that I don’t believe that, after more than two centuries of white male rule in this country, a winning combination of Democrats, Independents, and Republicans can be assembled to vote for BOTH a black man and woman on one year’s White House ticket. It would be too much of an evolutionary leap. Sadly, these sorts of advances will probably have to be made one at a time.

    I look forward someday to voting for a woman (or better yet, MANY women) for president, but right now we have the historic opportunity to help an African-American senator with extraordinary patience and progressive credentials reach the Oval Office. I look forward to January 20 of next year and the inauguration of President Barack Obama–no matter who his VP turns out to be.

  • # 17: Pelosi treated Clinton with absolute contempt during the campaign. If Clinton returns the favor, who can blame her?

    Pelosi has turned out to be a HUGE disappointment, just like all the other Democratic leaders in Congress. They have done virtually nothing to call the Bush administration to account or end the most egregious of the Bush policy initiatives. In many cases, the Democratic leadership in Congress abets the Bush administration.

  • Sibelius is clearly qualified (more qualified than Bill Clinton when he first sought the presidency). I didn’t care for her “Democratic Response” speech, but that’s not a disqualification. She’d be fine, but I’m not sure that she adds much. Most women democrats are already on board. Extreme Hillary-ites apparently won’t get on board unless Hillary tops the ticket.

    I still like Schweitzer, as he gives the NRA pro-gun folks a reason not to care too much about this election and to stay home in disgust with the Republicans, and he would help a lot with the mountain west. Appalachia would like him, although his name recognition there is probably in the low single digits.

    I’ve said this before (and have generated some dissents), but I think Nancy Pelosi would be fantastic as VP. She’s got gravitas, she fits very well with Obama on Iraq, relatively populist economics, and talking to enemies. She adds to his strength in politicking and in crafting legislation. She took impeachment off the table, but regrettably we’ve never had the votes for going forward on that. Would she give up being speaker to be America’s first female VP? – Possibly, as it gets her into the history books in a way that being Speaker does not.

    I wasn’t too keen on Clark, as his presidential campaign was lackluster, but I must admit he has been hitting every note exactly right recently.

    If Obama wants Hillary as his VP for whatever reason, I’ll defer to his judgement, but in my opinion she was a flawed candidate who won’t add much to his ticket. There was a reason that Carter did not pick Ted Kennedy as his VP in 1980, despite Kennedy’s strong showing, and I think we have a similar dynamic with Hillary: a few positives, lots of negatives, and supporters who wouldn’t be mollified by having their candidate in second place. Carter went on to lose, but Obama has more advantages and fewer negatives, other than the racism factor.

  • She’s inexperienced (like Obama). Sebelius may have logged 22 years in elected office as a congresswoman, insurance commissioner, and governor. But little of that time was spent on the national stage, several Clinton supporters pointed out…. Her list of accomplishments is, in fact, quite long … but Clinton supporters doubt it trumps Hillary’s. […]

    —–

    Umm, no. Sebelius did not serve in Congress.

    Her father in law, Republican Keith Sebelius (1916-1982), did serve in the US House from 1969 to 1981.

    Kathleen Sebelius is the daughter of former Ohio Governor John Gilligan. Kathleen Sebelius served in the Kansas House of Representatives from 1987 to 1995, and state Insurance Commissioner from 1995 to 2003.

  • Who is arguing that no other woman but Hillary belongs on the ticket? That sounds like a strawman to me.

    The problem here is arguing that some other woman besides Hillary would be more qualified than she is to be the VP nominee, would run better or would get as many votes. The problem is passing over Hillary in favor of some woman with lesser qualifications, as if just adding any woman to the ticket would do the trick.

    Women are sensitive to the idea that all women are alike and interchangeable, a part of sexism. If Obama puts another woman on the ticket, he conveys that impression and does nothing to undo the current perception of latent misogyny in his campaign.

    Sebelius, like Obama, has not earned the right to be a nominee on the national level. Perhaps if she had run for president and dropped out, or held ANY national office, things would be different, but that just isn’t the situation. Further, Obama really needs someone with some foreign relations experience on the ticket. He has no cred in that area. It would help him more to balance his ticket with someone older too. Diane Feinstein, if he’s thinking female, but she may be too conservative for you guys.

  • # 44. President Carter did not pick Ted Kennedy in 1980 because Carter was the incumbent President when Kennedy challenged him. Carter already had a Vice President — Walter Mondale. Mondale was a loyal and valued member of the Carter administration, and so would not have been dropped from the ticket. Even if Mondale didn’t run again in 1980, Carter certainly would not have picked Kennedy to replace him, given that Kennedy had challenged the incumbent President. In addition, based on Ted Kennedy’s previous refusals to consider running for Vice President (1968, 1972), there’s little reason to think he’d have said yes in 1980 if the nomination had been offered.

  • Whether choosing Sibelius is or is not a deliberate attempt to prevent Hillary Clinton form ever becoming POTUS (except if Obama is not elected this year or is defeated in 2012) the practical effect is that many women will assume that this is a revenge move by Obama.

  • On June 14th, 2008 at 3:54 pm, Brownell said
    First, the assumption that Hillary’s voters favored her only, or primarily, because she was a woman, is false and invidious.
    ___________________

    The two words that come most immediately to mind, from this piece of your post as well as your post as a whole, is: Says You.

    SOME voters were attracted to Clinton because she’s a woman, just like SOME voters are attracted to Obama because he’s black, and SOME voters are attracted to McCain because he’s a white guy. It might not be “right” that people choose surface reasons to support a candidate, but to say it doesn’t happen is naive. The only thing that would be worse if if you believed those surface issues about other candidates BUT NOT yours. In other words, if you believed, yeah black people want Obama and white guys want McCain in droves, but ONLY INTELLIGENT THOUGHTFUL voters realize Clinton is the best choice. So, three cheers for you not being stupid enough to believe that.

    But you come close.

    I thought Edwards was the candidate who best reflected the agenda I wanted a President to follow. When he dropped out, Obama was the next step. Not only do I prefer these two candidates because of their qualification and accomplishments in AND out of politics, neither have the genuine baggage the Clintons bring to the table. At no point was I ever in full-blooded support of Hillary Clinton, though had she become the nominee, I would’ve certainly voted for her over McCain, but it was never due to sexism. I’m sure you’re not assuming it was, unless you’re some kind of asshole or something, which you’re not, right?

    You just might have to face the fact that maybe, just maybe, Hillary Clinton developed a lot of enmity amongst prospective voters, and not all of them feel that way because of what she has or doesn’t have swinging ‘twixt her legs. To assume otherwise diminishes everyone else’s thought process in choosing their candidate while, raising you own to some higher standard for no earthly reason. And that would make you some kind of ignorant asshole, which you’re not right?

    Right?

  • I like what Hark @ 5 says:

    Millions of women supported Hillary with a great deal of sweat and passion. Snubbing Hillary for another would be a slap in the face, an insult. I don’t know why people can’t grasp that. It’s a personal, emotional thing. You can’t reason with strong feelings and sentiments, no matter how hard you try.

    Lot of wisdom in that.
    But then there is this from JMG @ 8:

    Memo to Clinton supporters: 1. Politics is not about you and your feelings.

    Do you see the bifurcation? It’s the emotional brain versus the analytical. Both arguments encompass huge swaths of the truth.

    Me?
    I am a brain uniter not a divider.
    So here’s a solution:

    The VP should be someone from the Clinton camp.
    It was a long bitter fight. Barack needs to honor the other side.
    Analytically, I favor Wesley Clark. He balances the ticket perfectly.
    He has got international bona fides like no one else in mix.
    Put him in charge of getting us out of Iraq.
    The guy is absolutely the perfect choice for that.
    If he can’t do it… no one can.

    In 2012, pick a different VP. One to groom for 2016.
    But for now, pick the Clinton-supporting Clark.
    Emotionally we need to make amends to the Hillary side of the party.
    Analytically, we need an older southern self-made military man with a whole lot of brain.

    Obama/Clark

    It’s the unbeatable ticket.

  • the appearance of throwing a bone to these fanatics

    These “fanatics” have been the BASE of the Democratic party for a very long time. Carpetbagger commenters are better than on some other blogs, but PLEASE keep in mind that women register and vote in greater numbers than any other “group” … and what they think IS important. Even women who didn’t necessarily support Sen. Clinton will rally to the defense of a woman they think is being mistreated.

    BAC

  • 46.
    On June 14th, 2008 at 4:20 pm, Mary said:

    Who is arguing that no other woman but Hillary belongs on the ticket? That sounds like a strawman to me.

    Yeah! If you’re going to make that assertion, Steve, you need to provide a link to such an argument and quote it too.

    Oh, you did both of those? Well, I guess Mary’s just a moron then.

  • One of the best qualities a VP candidate can have is a “fighting” personality and campaign style. In the last few months of her campaign, Hillary Clinton showed just that spirit.

    Unfortunately, her campaign had so alienated the Obama people – plus Bill’s probable failure to pass vetting -and that has eliminated her from the VP position.

    I’d love to find someone – man OR woman – with that campaigning style to second the ticket. I just don’t get that “feeling” from Sibeleus.

    But, at the end of the day, THIS Dem will be fine with whomever Obama chooses as his running mate.

  • BAC

    I’m a woman and I certainly don’t rally to her defense. Hillary was not mistreated by Obama, though SHE certainly did a number on him by claiming she and John McCain were more qualified to be CIC than Obama. Hell, she’s as qualified to be CIC as Laura Bush or Barbara Bush or Nancy Reagan or Rosalynn Carter. And John McCain is just about that qualified.

    The press is another matter, and that’s where the blame should rest, with Hillary sharing it — her campaign decided early-on to claim that her Democratic opponents would be ganging up on her because she was a woman if they criticized her, in hopes of “changing the subject” and winning female sympathy votes.

    Sorry, but I personally only come to the defense of people with more integrity than this.

  • Er … Webb would be a huge slap in the face to feminists. He was on the wrong side of Tailhook, he wrote a hugely influential article that set back the efforts of women to serve in combat and advance in the armed forces … here, check this link.

  • 39.
    On June 14th, 2008 at 3:54 pm, Brownell said:

    “A little honesty among the Obamacans would be helpful in approaching the general election. It should be acknowledged that the better qualified candidate was passed over in favor of the less qualified candidate.”

    *TILT*

    Your delusions are showing. No pangs of doubt or guilt on this voters part. My honest assessment is that Team Clinton got outplayed and went down ugly. Mark Penn’s big regret is that they didn’t get nastier sooner. Maybe that’s yours also. I’m more confident every day that the right person is the Dem candidate. And that’s the honest truth.

  • I didn’t even read this whole article, but I don’t think it would be wise to choose any woman, but Hillary. I am definitely not a supporter of Senator Clinton. I’ve grown to dislike her tremendously, but I think it would be pretty insulting not to choose her if Senator Obama was to choose a woman. Senator Clinton may lack some integrity and class in my opinion (or at least her husband didn’t demonstrate these qualities), but she is intelligent and cares about people. In addition, she worked very hard on her campaign and although she didn’t win the popular vote (as she claims), she does have an enormous following that no other woman in this country has right now.

    However,I don’t think he needs a woman on the ticket to win. I really don’t think he should choose Senator Clinton – it would ruin his platform of “change” and quite frankly, former President Clinton is a liability. Plus, I don’t know if this country is ready to vote for both an African American man as president and a woman vice-president. I am, but I don’t assume everyone is ready.

  • Black-Hole Mary, it’s SO nice know you haven’t changed one iota! Still as clueless and wantonly ignorant as ever. Still out to prove that you really…REALLY don’t know how to read, or you’re JAFT

    YOU say: Who is arguing that no other woman but Hillary belongs on the ticket? That sounds like a strawman to me.

    From the post you clearly took the time to NOT read, but feel qualified for some stupid reason to comment on:
    *** “Unacceptable” was the word used by Allida Black, a longtime Clinton backer who is now pushing for an Obama/Clinton ticket. “It’s got to be Hillary.” […]

    Picking Sebelius wouldn’t be an olive branch, says Black; it would be an insult: “If Senator Obama has a problem with women, putting a woman on a ticket is not going to get him their votes.” Here it gets paradoxical. It would be OK if Obama picked a man — that’s just business as usual. “Jim Webb is not a slap in the face to Hillary,” Black says. “Sebelius is.” […]***

    Now, of course, you’ll probably be pathetic enough to say “big whoop, ONE person says no other woman but Hillary belongs on the ticket.” But your argument is NOBODY is saying that. Which makes you uninformed or a liar. I’ll leave it to you to decide how you’d rather be known, though this time, my money’s on liar.

  • Jesus, is this a presidential election or a bunch of high school cheerleaders freaking out over the prom?

    “O. Mah ghad! I can’t believe he’s, like, thinking of going with her when he, like, totally knew she really wanted to go! Like, I know she said she didn’t want to go with him but how could he even think of going with someone else? I’m so not voting for him for class president!”

    Gah.

    How about this: Vote for Obama and his running mate or don’t.

  • Here’s the problem with Sebelius: Does anyone remember her Democratic response to the State of the Union address? It was horrible. She put me to sleep, and I was excited about seeing her. I think we need someone who is a better speaker and harder hitting.

  • BAC @ 51: “These “fanatics” have been the BASE of the Democratic party for a very long time.”

    No, these fanatics are not the “base” of the democratic party. I wasn’t talking about the Clinton supporters in general, most of whom are good and reasonable people who are backing the democratic nominee. I was talking about the die-hard dead enders who are demanding Clinton on Obama’s ticket and won’t accept anything else. The ones threatening to cut off their own nose to spite their face.

    Furthermore, FYI, I am a woman. So don’t try to tell me how women will act; I know perfectly well. So far as I am concerned, any self-styled democrat who will help McCain to take away my rights and my sister’s just because they are throwing a tantrum over losing the primary election is as good as a republican themselves.

  • I can understand Hillary supporters saying no woman but Hillary for VP (if it is to be a woman). After all, she did run a close second, and no other woman made the effort to run for president (though that’s not a requirement to be VP). And another woman on the ticket means that Hillary might not become the first president, if she does at all.

    But her negative campaigning against Obama hurt the Dems. Her bad finances hurt small vendors. Her husband would not vet well. She has a lot of negatives herself. Saying it’s Hillary or no one makes it all about her, not about her gender. The VP should have an excellent working relationship with Obama, and complement him, not just be #2 in the race, or a woman, or whatever.

    I agree with others that Obama needs to pick a white male, as I also believe a majority of Americans are not ready for a minority/woman ticket. It’s unfortunate, but the time will come some day. I also agree that Obama needs to pick someone from Clinton’s camp, like Wes Clark. Especially after seeing him kick b*tt in the video CB posted: http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/15866.html

    CB: To most Americans, “Sebelius” sounds more like a Harry Potter villain than a prominent politician.

    #25: DrBB: As opposed to an important 20th Century Finnish composer and the name of the most popular music notation software. Guess that’s just me….

    Nope, me too. 🙂

    There should be a place for Sibelius’ talents in the Obama administration. But not VP. There are others far more qualified.

    #41 Stacy6: “I’m looking forward to the day when we no longer waste so much time discussing the gender or the skin tone of the candidate and instead focus on their qualities as leaders and as human beings.”

    Hear, hear!!!

  • so much to do about nothing first off the choice for vp is obama – hillary just won’t do. i understandher supporters say nobody but her on the ticket no other woman it her due but is it really? didn’t he earn it too? didn’t he play by the rules? have the most states won, the most delegates. He did everything right and she tried everything in her power to steal it away with fuzzy math, popular votes etc what twilight zone were we in for 16months? oh the drama .. the division of races no unity the the sniper fires, then sexism did i forget any thing? now we are debating who he should choose to be his running mate to woo her voters. as if to barter them off for $30mil as if she really gave damm. she traded the blacks off a long time ago when they voted for bill and stood by him when he got his weenie sucked by monica.. when they impeached him talk about a “fairy tale” who ever he picks
    to be sure he won’t have to have food taster.

  • 46. Mary said: Sebelius, like Obama, has not earned the right to be a nominee on the national level.

    Someday, one of the Hillary nuts like Mary is going to explain to me how Sibelius and Obama are any less qualified than Bill Clinton was in 1992. Because I frankly don’t see any distinction, especially with Sibelius. The best Democratic presidents have been people with little or no prior national experience.

  • I think it’s ridiculous to pick a running mate based on which candidate is the least likely to give the *Hillywackers a hissy fit. They’re going to hate whomever he chooses, male or female, if it ain’t their gal. And it ain’t gonna be their gal.

    I think General Clark would be an excellent candidate. He is a fighter, he doesn’t back down, and he’s very articulate. And for the Hillywackers, he was a Clinton man.

    *Hillywackers is not a pejorative term to apply to all Clinton supporters. It is a pejorative term to apply to the lunatic fringe of Clinton supporters, as typified by Harriet Christian.

  • Shalimar

    The best Democratic presidents have been people with little or no prior national experience.

    I’ve heard a number of people say this is one strong reason they support Obama. I think “Washington experience” must ALL be exchanged favors in a pecking order, with the exception of only a few courageous souls, and that leads people to forget about integrity and issues AND America.

  • Sebelius gave the Democratic response to the State of the Union this year. Not a very impressive performance by any means.

    You are missing the obvious fact that she was not a Clinton supporter– she endorsed Obama. If you are trying to build bridges with a defeated opponent’s camp, you choose from their side, not your own side. Otherwise, it is obvious tokenism, disrespectful of your opponent and her supporters. What Senator Clinton did is show that a woman can accrue support and political power in a presidential contest. That power should be respected, as would the power of a male opponent.

  • So Sebelius should be disqualified on the basis of her gender? Hmmm, what’s the definition of sexism?

  • If you are trying to build bridges with your opponent’s camp, you choose from their side, not your own side. If you don’t care about building bridges, you choose whoever you want, and see what happens in November. He could still win without building bridges, the choice is up to him. But if you are trying to build bridges, you choose from your opponent’s camp, not from your opponent’s gender.

  • Dan S. despite what the Hillary-whiners claim, there is a possibility that, were Obama to choose Sebelius as his running mate, it’s because he feels she best complements his platform and gender isn’t that much of a consideration. He could choose her for reasons other than her hoo-hah.

    I know, it seems improbable, but it’s not impossible.

  • Obama is already doing very well with Hillary supporters, and will convince most of them that they don’t want to betray the principles Hillary ran on by going for McCain. We are really making a mistake taking the dead-enders here (or the psuedo-supporters) as seriously as we have. They — and the Larry Johnsons and their ilk — even if sincere — are representative of so few real Democratic voters that it is laughable.

    This isn’t a negotiation between the armies of two separate countries, trying to make an alliance against a third. We aren’t making a treaty, giving up East Lionazia to the other country so their cavalry will move into position at Fort Tiki. We are, supposedly all Democrats aiming for the same thing, agreeing almost completely on policies — if not on details. (And whatever arguments ‘they’ make, the ‘Obama isn’t electable’ is meaningless. He’s the candidate we got, period. We may think he was the best choice — as I do — or the worst, but we aren’t getting a Mulligan here. He’s our candidate, the way Dukakis and Kerry and Clinton were, and whatever his weaknesses — if any major ones — he’s our only chance to defeat McCain. McCain isn’t going to defeat himself.)

    As for Sebelius, she’s been my choice for a while — and even if she isn’t a great campaigner — I didn’t hear the response she made to the SotU, but everybody has bad days and Kansans don’t seem to think she’s that bad — we aren’t nominating just a running mate. (Obama is plenty good enough as a campaigner himself.)

    We are nominating a Vice President, and yes, Tim Russert’s sad death reminds us that everybody’s mortal. Sebelius seems to be the closest to Obama on their positions, she has executive experience, and her governing style is very similar to Obama’s legislative style.

    But there aren’t many bad choices out there. Nunn, Hegel, Webb — who DOES have problems with anti-women statements in the past — Warner (leave him as Senator), Richardson (sorry, but even though he was my original choice, a ‘black-hispanic’ ticket really wouldn’t fly). But Sebelius, and from what I’ve heard, Schweitzer, Napolitano, even Bayh would be acceptable. (I even find the idea of Lincoln Chaffee interesting, though I want him back in the Senate — as a Democrat — when Whitehouse becomes AG.)

  • The problem here is arguing that some other woman besides Hillary would be more qualified than she is to be the VP nominee, would run better or would get as many votes. The problem is passing over Hillary in favor of some woman with lesser qualifications, as if just adding any woman to the ticket would do the trick.

    Women are sensitive to the idea that all women are alike and interchangeable, a part of sexism. If Obama puts another woman on the ticket, he conveys that impression and does nothing to undo the current perception of latent misogyny in his campaign.

    On an argument based purely on experience, there are several women who are far more qualified–Nancy Pelosi, for example. The key isn’t to pick the person with the most experience–or else Robert Byrd would be the next president–but to pick someone who is smart, qualified and has enough experience to do the job well. HRC is by no means the only qualified woman. Picking a qualified woman to be the running mate might frustrate the Clintons, but that doesn’t make it sexist.

    Sebelius, like Obama, has not earned the right to be a nominee on the national level. Perhaps if she had run for president and dropped out, or held ANY national office, things would be different, but that just isn’t the situation.

    I think Obama earned the right to be the nominee on a national level when he won the most delegate, states and votes in the Democratic primaries. And at that point, he also won the right to choose his running mate.

  • I would say that Sibelius’ 22 years trumps 8 years sitting like a bump on a log at Wal-Mart meetings as First Lady of Arkansas and 8 years of White House pillow talk. That was the problem with HRC – when you looked closely, there was no “there” there.

    As to the Clintonloonies – fuck’m (well, probably not, that brings up some uuuuugly images).

  • If any Clinton supporter thinks Barack Obama is going to be bullied by them or anyone else on either side of this campaign, they clearly still have no idea of whom they’re dealing with. Sorry, folks, it’s over. Deal with it. And the hidden forces who are so frantic to get Hillary in a position of power to extend their own unspeakable agenda will just have to go back to the stygian darkness they came from.

  • Where did this ‘national experience’ idea come from? Other than Truman and Johnson, who had been Senators, but were elected President after having been VP and succeding their deceased Presidents, can anyone name the last two Democratic Presidents with ANY national experience — i.e. Senator, Representative or Cabinet member?

    I’ll give the answer, but look at the Republicans. Their Presidents with national experience in the 20th Century were GHWBush (Rep., Cab, VP), Richard Nixon (Rep, Sen, VP), Herbert Hoover (Cab), Warren Harding (Sen) and Taft (Cab), hardly an argument in favor of ‘experience.’

    In fact, the best Republican Presidents of the last century were TR and Eisenhower, one a Governor, one with no national — or any — political experience at all.

    As for Democrats with ‘resumes,’ and defeats, we have Kerry, Gore, Mondale, Carter, McGovern, Humphrey, Cox and Bryan in the last Century. Republicans have given us Dole, Bush, Nixon (1st try), Ford, Hoover, Taft.

    I don’t see the ‘national experience has ever meant much — until a certain candidate argued it did, even if it opened the door to her putative Republican opponent.

    Oh, the last two Democrats elected with National experience? John Kennedy and James Buchanan — who arguably had the best resume of any President, and who was the worst pre-Nixon President.

  • I thought all the HillaryHate and insults aimed at her supporters from some of the Obama supporters on this board would end once she conceded.

    Guess I was wrong; some of you folks just can’t resist.

  • Mary: go the hell back to the Washington Monthly, where they have so many trolls you aren’t so goddamned obvious. Of course, since you’ve been Miss Easily Ignored for all your worthless life to date, the “fifteen weeks of fame” you’re getting here. even if it’s 15 weeks of more and more people thinking how nice it would be to do something unspeakable to you – is like heroin to a juinkie, right???

    You pathetic bimbo.

  • 46. On June 14th, 2008 at 4:20 pm, Mary said:

    Sebelius, like Obama, has not earned the right to be a nominee on the national level.
    ____________________

    This might be my naivete, but I thought when you won your party’s nomination, you earned the right to be a nominee on the national level.

    You know, like Obama did.

    And Clinton didn’t.

    Schmuck

  • Sebelius sounds like a fine choice. Like Obama, the more you know about her, the more you like her.

    Veep candidates don’t really count for much in electoral politics so it is best to pick someone who is qualified to be a heartbeat away from the presidency. Military and foreign policy expertise shouldn’t be over-emphasized – these topics should be covered by both ends of the ticket.

  • The thing that I intuitively get the most is this: If you put a woman on the ticket to placate Hillary voters and it’s not Hillary, the implication is that all women are interchangeable. Yes, women voters would LOVE to see a woman heading a national ticket. But that woman shouldn’t be there just because she’s a woman; she should be there because she’s qualified, talented, and an inspiring candidate, and she got the same chance and opportunities as a man with the same things to offer.

    It’s basically saying, “Well, she’s got a vagina, are you happy now?”

    I’m not saying that that’s the reason the Obama campaign is considering Sebelius. She is, in fact, qualified, talented, and inspiring. But that’s not necessarily, in most political campaigns, the reason she would be chosen. She would be chosen to shut the bitches up. And yeah, that’s offensive, and not counter-intuitive at all. Angry Clinton fans are some of the most likely people to see the Obama campaign as a campaign that would act this way and they may well see it that way.

    The other telling thing is the framing in one of the comments you quoted: “Jim Webb is not a slap in the face to Hillary.” No, he’s not. He is a slap in the face to women voters, though, but that is a different metric.

  • Tom Cleaver: “As to the Clintonloonies – fuck’m (well, probably not, that brings up some uuuuugly images).”

    It never fails. When were another candidate’s supporters EVER denigrated for their supposed appearance? When? The answer is NEVER. But a woman candidate has drawn many female supporters, who openly support her in the name of advancing gender equality. For that they are freely mocked and denigrated for their appearance– even the specter of rape is conjured– and not a single Obama supporter offers a word of condemnation. And you wonder why we, her supporters, men and women alike, are eager to see Senator Clinton, the winner of nearly half the delegates, respected on the VP issue? We are not some opposing army, we are a force within the Democratic Party. And we demand respect.

  • Why not Sibelius or Napolitano or McKaskill or any of the other women who made it on their own instead of having it handed to them because of their husband.
    OOOh! How could you insult Mrs. Clinton that way!
    Why the Clintons might take their millions & go hang out w/ the Republicans.
    Works for me!

  • Wow! There is so much disrespect in this forum for HC’s supporters. What’s up with that? Doesn’t Obama need these voters? He can’t win with just his initial supporters. I agree with Dan S. said.

  • […] they are freely mocked and denigrated for their appearance– even the specter of rape is conjured– and not a single Obama supporter offers a word of condemnation. — Dan S, @84

    It’s obvious that you’re new here. Tom Cleaver is an equal opportunity hater (Hillary, and even the Clintons, are but a small segment of the hated population) and he lives up to his surname in that he’s always over the top expressing that hate. Like with Hillary’s dead-enders, it does no good to try and reason with him; he subsides for a day or two and then erupts again. It’s not that we got used to it. But, after a while, it’s just too much effort.

    He’s like “the girl with a curl in the middle of her forehead”; every now and then, his posts are fantastic — very insightful and informed and well worth reading. But, if you see key words like “Mencken”, “Clinton”, “South”, “Appalachia” or “Republicans”… run for the hills (aka spare yourself the indigestion and skip reading). All you’ll see is invective, usually repeated for umptieth time.

  • As someone who is not American and has lived in East Asia for 35 years, I should simply llike to say that far too many of posts here are pitifully parochial. The choices Americans make do not affect Americans alone; people of other nations are affected in ways that may be good or bad, but in the last few years it has surely been more of the bad – that is to say, people of other nations may well – and in fact do – suffer, and suffer seriously, because of choices made by Americans. Ask the Iraqis. The question any sensible American voter should be asking herself or himself is who will be better not only for America but for the rest of the world, McCain or Obama. It demonstrates a childish and contemptible lack of responsibility to vote for the former out of parochial pique.

  • Brownell @ 39
    A little honesty among the Obamacans would be helpful in approaching the general election. It should be acknowledged that the better qualified candidate was passed over in favor of the less qualified candidate.

    Do you speak of Bill Richardson?

    Honestly, their are a number of qualifications that make a person fit or unfit for the Oval Office. Bill Richardson has a kick-ass resume, but he was not an impressive candidate this time around. I was particularly put off by his reponse in a debate about what he would do in his first 100 days as president. He proceeded to reel off a litany of things that a person would be lucky to accomplish in 100 months. YOU seem to believe that Hillary was most qualified. Don’t state it as a fact and expect the rest of us to stipulate to it. Your entire post was an exercise in condescension and a demonstration of the stages of grief. You carom from denial to bargaining – you “bargain” as if Hillary is the dominant party in the negotiation. Ah , denial. You hint at acceptance (you will vote for Obama) but write as if Hillary actually won by virture of your belief that she deserved to win.

    I am reminded of an article I read this spring about Obama. The author recalled a famous description of FDR as a man with a “second-rate intellect and a first-rate temperament.” The person who so described FDR was an admirer whose words made plain what element he believed more important in FDR’s success in helping America overcome the signifcant challenges it faced during his terms in office. The author of the Obama article mused that Obama might just be a man with a first-rate intellect AND a first-rate temperament. I cannot recall if the author described Hillary Clinton as FDR’s opposite number (first-rate intellect / second-rate temperament) or if I reached that conclusion myself. I think it is true of both Bill and Hillary. The promise of intellect betrayed by the mischief of temperament.

    As to the main point of CB’s post, I think it would be needlessly incendiary to choose a woman other than Hillary for the VP slot. Since I do not want Hillary in that position, at this point I think that means a white male for the spot. Wes Clark is someone I have thought would be a good choice, but I admit that it makes me nervous that I am not alone in that assessment. Usually the time people I find intriguing move to the short list is the time they disappoint me. I will be very interested to see if Clark seems to be in contention.

  • I know she’s a compelling VP choice.

    But the number one reason Obamanuts mention her is that she’s a woman.

    Which is really, really infuriating.

  • Also, can we ditch the ‘those voting for McCain’ trick? It’s not an appreciable number, and it includes zero posters in this thread.

  • Obama needs a VP and a cabinet of people who know how Washington works, intimately.
    The Bushies have loaded the departments, like the Justice Dept., with Bushies. They are trying to tie the hands of the next President with treaties, tax breaks for the rich, and other programs that will last through the next administration.
    And they cheat whenever they can, and like true spawn of Nixon, they cheat just because it is in their blood.

    Obama will need all the savvy Democrats that he can lay his hands on. Picking an experienced in-fighter for VP, whatever gender would be a statement that, if he wins, he will be able to hit the ground running and would hopefully would send a signal to the Bushies not to keep laying land mines, because Obama will have the staff to know where those booby traps have been laid. Otherwise Obama, like Carter, will spend most of his 4 years just learning how to deal with the office, and watching the political ground explode in his face every time he takes a step in a direction the Bushies don’t want him to take.

    He desperately needs people with decades of DC experience.

    It’s not the PR campaign during the run for office that will be ugly, it will be the dirty politics once elected that will make or break a nonRepocon president.
    And the Repocons are so evil that they are into hiring mercenaries to do their fighting for them.
    They are vial, they are vicious, they now have their own private armies, and they want to rule most if not all of the world. They are the NeoNazis.

    So poicking an old line experienced Dem , may not be “a new kind of politics,” Its just common sense and reality.

  • Probably mixing metaphors, but this lady has some brass balls. She stands up for people. Check her out.

  • “But if you are trying to build bridges, you choose from your opponent’s camp, not from your opponent’s gender.”

    Obama is building bridges by having a platform that is nearly identical to Clinton’s. The internet conspiracy squad is irrelevant, and Sebelius’ qualifications should not be disregarded because she happens to have the same type of genitals as Obama’s from opponent.

    “There is so much disrespect in this forum for HC’s supporters. What’s up with that?”

    Perhaps because they hypocritically demand respect while hypocritically attributing Obama’s support to sexism and celebrity worship. Respect is a two-way street, which is why most people find the kitchen sink tossers’ appeal to civility to be false and hollow. Also, making sexist arguments against an accomplished governor is somewhat irksome for those of us who are and have been feminists prior to the 2008 primary season. Kathleen Sebelius is a candidate for VP because she’s an accomplished and impressive leader. The sooner the HRC internet conspiracy theory squad collectively grows up and stops looking at Governor Sebelius like their ex’s new girlfriend, the sooner they start getting some respect from real feminists and real progressives.

    “Doesn’t Obama need these voters?”

    No, the

  • There is a link to the Beam and his arguments, but no link supporting the contention that women think its Hillary or no one. Clearly, that kind of documenting satisfies you, but I find myself wondering when Beam became all women, much less all Clinton backers?

  • I thought all the HillaryHate and insults aimed at her supporters from some of the Obama supporters on this board would end once she conceded.

    Know why it hasn’t ended? Because you who can’t accept your loss gracefully have robbed us of our due right to rejoice! Even now with the VP pick looming, we’re held hostage to your bitterness.

    I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be around any of you in Vegas. You’d probably go full-tilt terrorist over a losing hand of blackjack.

  • Black-Hole Mary, dumb as always. Beam’s arguments are NOT “Beam’s arguments.” Beam interviewed Clinton supporters and broke down their dissatisfaction into four sections, quoting one in particular. Oh, but it’s not enough to quote someone, there must be links, too. I nailed it earlier. You originally claimed that the idea that no Clinton supporters would support a woman is a strawman, that no woman feels that way. I said there’s obviously at least on, as Beam quotes her, you know take the OPPOSITE-strawman approach and say Beam (but for some reason, NOT Black) don’t speak for ALL women, when Beam never claimed that Black did speak for all women)

    Really, why do you bother, when all your arguments are based on information you clearly never read through, or accurately comprehend? Seriously, WHY? You actually cause more harm than good for anyone who thinks like you, and while I thank you for it, at some point, don’t you ever realize just what kind of a clown you are? I honestly hope you are a self-aware super-carcastic troll, because anyone truly as dumb as you shouldn’t be allowed to operate a computer without some kind of supervision

  • “The sooner the HRC internet conspiracy theory squad collectively grows up and stops looking at Governor Sebelius like their ex’s new girlfriend, the sooner they start getting some respect from real feminists and real progressives.”

    This is a supremely sexist statement, coming from a supposed ‘real feminist.’ On top of that, it is supremely arrogant. I said Hillary supporters demand respect in response to a comment that conjured rape and the old “feminists are ugly” stereotype.

    This site is a sewer.

  • Crissa said: “I know she’s [I assume this is Sebelius Crissa is talking about] a compelling VP choice. But the number one reason Obamanuts mention her is that she’s a woman. Which is really, really infuriating.”

    Actually I think they mention her because she’s the Democratic Governor of a Republican leaning state.

    Which I might point out is where Obama’s mother’s family is from. Good for reminding Americans that he’s not just the son of a Kenyan.

    Look, I voted for Clinton (in VA). I STILL think Clinton would make a better President than Obama or McCan’t. And I think Clinton would make a good VP if Obama had the sense to get the Govenor of New York to appoint Bill to Hillary’s vacant Senate seat.

    But I’m going to vote for Obama in November, even if he does name Sebelius his VP nominee.

    But than again, I’m not a pissed off Clinton supporting woman. I think I understand why they would be annoyed at another woman candidate for VP. Hillary worked hard to get ready to be President. Her years in the Senate have been spent learning the job and earning the respect of the people she’s worked with. Ask any General or Admiral who’s come before her on the Armed Services committee. She’s been tough (clearly too tough on her vote on the AUMF), practical, wonkish (which is a good thing in my book) and hard working. She certainly knows what she’s talking about better than McCan’t.

    If after all that, and her time working (and it was working) as First Lady of both the United States and Arkansas, someone comes along and says “No, this other woman is better qualified to be one heart beat away from the Presidency” you’ve basically slapped every woman in the face who’s ever worked to succeed according to the “Boys” rules and said to them: “I’m sorry, but by trying to play by OUR rules you’ve become a Bitch and we really don’t want you.”

    MissMudd said: “Because you [Clinton supporters] who can’t accept your loss gracefully have robbed us of our due right to rejoice!”

    Oh bo ho! I didn’t realize we had to genuflect in your direction to make you happy. Here, I’ll make you even crazier:

    You don’t get to say you’ve won until they count the votes at the convention in August.

  • As a clinton primary voter and supporter, I will not vote for Obama unless she is on the ticket. Especially not if he picks Sebllius. “Unity” my ass.

  • The Allida Blacks of this world marginalize and stereotype women when they say that only one woman can fill the VP job. That’s like saying there are plenty of qualified men, but only one qualified female. It speaks to what, I think, Hillary believes, namely, that women are inferior beings, and that she’s a unique exception. Hillary talks about misogyny, which she learned first hand, at the feet of her father, who treated her mother like dirt, but favored his first born, Hillary. The lesson learned, distance yourself from female victims, and curry favor with powerful men, and try to be as much like them as possible . . . Her feminine perspective emerged after she lost the Iowa primary and was slated to loose in New Hampshire. It is too bad she persuaded some women to accept such a limiting role model for women.

    The Clintons played the race card on Barack, promoting the idea that the AA vote was racial, introducing phrases, for repetition,”for pride” “first AA with a real chance to win,” until the white backlash, they were trying to generate, was forthcoming. Then she claiming it as a referendum from “the hardworking whites voters.” . Bill Clinton even went so far as to call protest from Baracks team a “mugging,” again trying to associate unfavorable racial images with Barack. There determination to defeat him knows no bounds, if Barack picks Hillary, it will be a case of sleeping with the enemy.

    http://www.digitaljournal.com/article

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