Will the NIE affect the Democratic presidential race?

It’s hard to say exactly what’s caused the Democratic presidential race to tighten in recent weeks. Some of the fluctuation, I’d argue, is to be expected at this stage of the process — undecideds start to break, supporters start having second-thoughts, etc.

That said, it’s also fair to say that John Edwards and Barack Obama have been using Hillary Clinton’s vote on the Kyl-Lieberman Iran measure to undermine some of her support, particularly among Dems who’ve been terrified of the prospect of a war with Iran.

With that in mind, do yesterday’s NIE revelations about Iran’s non-existent nuclear-weapons-program matter in the Democratic race? Arguably, the news matters quite a bit. The Obama campaign issued this statement yesterday afternoon:

“By reporting that Iran halted its nuclear weapon development program four years ago because of international pressure, the new National Intelligence Estimate makes a compelling case for less saber-rattling and more direct diplomacy. The juxtaposition of this NIE with the president’s suggestion of World War III serves as an important reminder of what we learned with the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq: members of Congress must carefully read the intelligence before giving the President any justification to use military force.”

As with many Obama criticisms, this one might be a little too subtle for a mass audience, but I think Matt Yglesias is right about the underlying point: Clinton didn’t read the 2002 NIE — if she had, she might not have supported the Iraq AUMF — and she hadn’t read this NIE before voting for the Kyl-Lieberman measure.

Now, contrast that with the Clinton campaign’s statement after yesterday’s news.

“The new declassified key judgments of the Iran NIE expose the latest effort by the Bush administration to distort intelligence to pursue its ideological ends. The assessment of the NIE vindicates the policy Senator Clinton will pursue as President: vigorous American-led diplomacy, close international cooperation, and effective economic pressure, with the prospect of carefully calibrated incentives if Iran addresses our concerns. Neither saber rattling nor unconditional meetings with Ahmadinejad will stop Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Senator Clinton has the strength and experience to conduct the kind of vigorous diplomacy needed to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons.”

There’s obviously multiple shots at Obama here, including the emphasis on experience and the criticism of so-called “unconditional meetings with Ahmadinejad,” but Ezra’s criticism seems fair: the Clinton campaign statement seems to miss the point of the NIE developments, and downplays the critical point that Iran’s nuclear-weapons program has been out of commission for more than four years. “This country does not need a Democratic candidate dedicated to hyping threats to in order to score political points or imply their ceaseless willingness to take the country to war,” Ezra said.

And then there’s John Edwards’ statement.

“The new National Intelligence Estimate shows that George Bush and Dick Cheney’s rush to war with Iran is, in fact, a rush to war. The new NIE finds that Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003 and that Iran can be dissuaded from pursuing a nuclear weapon through diplomacy. This is exactly the reason that we must avoid radical steps like the Kyl-Lieberman bill declaring Iran’s Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization, which needlessly took us closer to war. And it’s why I have proposed that we pursue a comprehensive diplomatic approach instead.”

Edwards gets the 2003 point right and gets the Kyl-Lieberman dig in.

If Clinton was on the defensive about Iran before, it’s probably about to get worse. As Yglesias concluded, “[T]he push for Kyl-Lieberman and similar measures looks an awful lot like a deliberate effort to change the subject away from Iran’s alleged nuclear program specifically because the main actors in the administration knew their case on this point was about to collapse. Democrats who voted for Kyl-Lieberman look, under the circumstances, likes dupes at best.”

Key question, I think: Did Hillary have access the the NIE, draft or not, before she voted on K/L?

  • I think the NIE has two potential cuts, and it given the timing it may be rather make-or-break for Clinton.

    The first and most obvious was my first reaction, and is the one I hear the most: it hurts Clinton because it shows how substantively and Bush-trustingly wrong and politically needless her Kyl-Lieberman vote really was.

    The more I think about it, however, there is a second possibility. What if the new NIE means everyone breathes a big sign and Iran is swept aside, no longer an important issue? Yeah, the highly active left wont see it that way, but what if in the general public’s mind this new, less dramatic view of Iran simply means that is one less thing to consider in the next 30 days before voting starts? That would essentially give Clinton a pass, rendering a key mistake a matter of no importance.

    Indeed, if Team Clinton gets its calm back (and its spin in the statement above is not bad, compared to Kindergarten Essays), it might take the approach if questioned about Kyl-Lieberman, “many disagreed with my vote and I respect that, but I think people ignore that I and my fellow Democrats in the Senate worked hard and successfully to tone down the Bush Administration’s war mongering in that resolution, and I believe the NIE makes the case for precisely that kind of firm yet measured approach. What we should all be glad about is realizing that Bush was wrong about an Iranian nuclear program today, and the issue in this campaign should be who has the experience to make sure Iran doesn’t pursue a nuclear program in the future. . .[and then pivot to her forward-looking speech, consigning her past vote to the dustbin of history]”

  • Jen Flowers @ 3:

    The most important thing now, as always, is to vote for the person you think is most qualified, and best represents your values. It shouldn’t pain you at all not to support Hillary, if you don’t think she’s the best. Quite the contrary, it should pain you if you chose to vote for Hillary, even though you don’t think she’s the best candidate, solely because she’s a she.

    And I feel the same way about anyone else looking to endorse any other candidate. If a black guy thinks Edwards is a better candidate, he should vote for Edwards. If li’l ol’ fat white me decides Obama or Hillary is the best, I shouldn’t think twice about my support.

  • Democrats who voted for Kyl-Lieberman look, under the circumstances, likes dupes at best.

    You’d think that voting for Bush’s “use of military force” in Iraq would have taught them that Bush lies and cannot be trusted, and they’d be fools to trust the administration.

    I don’t know why America saw that and Congressional Democrats didn’t. Over and over and over, before this recent release of the NIE, I’ve seen people saying, “I don’t believe Iran is a problem. None of the expert evidence points to it. Bush lied about Iraq and he’s lying about Iran.”

    It’s almost as if Congress doesn’t listen to Americans and has never heard or known what Bush is doing. Does word of Bush’s lies not filter through Congressional halls into their offices? Why are they suckered time and time again? Do Bush and Congress utterly ignore each other, as they both seem to ignore Americans whom they’re supposed to represent?

  • “This country does not need a Democratic candidate dedicated to hyping threats to in order to score political points or imply their ceaseless willingness to take the country to war,” Ezra said.

    I think this is too strong, and I don’t think anything Clinton did was wrong.

    First of all, Kyl-Lieberman doesn’t have to do with nuclear weapons. It has to do with the entirely separate issue of Iranian military personel actually giving bombs and explosives to insurgents in Iraq which the Iraqis then used to actually murder American military personnel who thought they were in iraq to make the world a better place. This chain of events happened again and again, and it’s ok for a US politician to support criticism of it and action against it, and the presence or absence of nuclear weapons or nuclear weapons development in Iran has absolutely nothing to do with it. If you feel otherwise, go look in the eyes of the family of one of the servicemembers who was killed by one of those bombs, but if you can still criticize Hillary to their faces, expect to have your commitment to America questioned.

    Also, the point about supposedly hyping Hillary’s image on defense and ability to use the military: hey, did you ever try to get a date in high school? Point being, high schools are basically mass-innocence-destruction grounds where thousands of girls end up going out with assholes because of some totally dishonest play, instead of a really nicer, honest guy, and the assholes end up being guys the girls have a real bad relationship with or who talk shit about the girls after the relationship ends and the girls really regret ever having gone out with. If there is a God, he is not a God who cares at all about setting this right, putting some points in the honest guys favor, or anything like that.

    Meaning, if you want to get a date- even just to have a nice, honest, respectful, relationship- the prospective date is sometimes so stupid and inexperienced you’ve got no choice but to make it look better than the other guy and your honesty will not help you one iota. You will not be one bit more likely to get a date with that girl, even if she’s honest, for the fact that you’re an honest guy. Sometimes getting a date just depends on how good you can make it look when you’re shaking your booty on the dance floor.

    We need a president who understands that. People who don’t are just way too dense, and I honestly run out of patience with them.

  • Will the NIE affect the Democratic presidential race?

    Yes.

    Here’s the Clinton campaign: “The new declassified key judgments of the Iran NIE expose the latest effort by the Bush administration to distort intelligence to pursue its ideological ends.

    Wow, did you guys finally notice how they do that all by yourselves?

    I’d say this is going to be really bad for Hillary and Co. Really bad. The Democratic base is already leery of the Triangulation Queen and now this just emphasizes the sheer stupidity of her trusting the Bush crime family in 2002. And then in 2007, did she learn a damn thing? She backed Bush’s buddy Lieberman on Iran, because she was either too stupid or too busy sucking up to The Lobby to remember that we Democrats expect her to be a LOT smarter than that.

    Her Iraq issue isn’t going away, it’s only going to come up more as the elections come nearer. IMHO this is the final in her coffin.

  • I sent this to Andrew Sullivan, on the same topic:

    Hey Andrew,

    I noticed you posted an email from a reader who thought the NIE could prove to be a chip for Obama to play re: Kyl-Lieberman. I think we could take that a step further: Does this not make Obama’s stated willingness to negotiate with Iran directly, and without preconditions, prescient? …And Hillary’s aggressive posturing towards same, both in debates and in her piece in Foreign Affairs, all the more misguided? If the final conclusion we reach from the NIE is that Iran is a rational actor that will make decisions based on cost-benefit analysis, then the psuedo-war-mongering “tough” talk emanating not only from Bush/Cheney but also, to a lesser degree, Hillary Clinton’s campaign, looks completely overwrought.

    What’s more, as Frank Rich pointed out on Sunday, you can construct a similar storyline when discussing what was basically Obama giving a public vote of no-confidence in Musharraf last spring, in light of recent events showing him to hardly be an ally worth courting.

    Looking back, much like their original differences in opinion on the war in Iraq, the debate over whether our public support of Musharraf should be, in effect, unconditional; and the debate over how far we should go in pursuing diplomacy with Iran, and more broadly what our posture towards them ought to be, Obama has looked consistently prescient, and Hillary has looked like just another Democrat kowtowing to the hawkish elite currently controlling both the White House and the vast majority of political commentary.

    Frank Rich has already started to make this case as a small part of a broader argument, but someone, I think, needs to write an op-ed of some sort dealing specifically and exclusively with foreign policy and how those campaign dust-ups look in hindsight. It even lends itself to some clever names, like, maybe, “Obama had foresight, in hindsight”, or something along those lines.

    Thanks for taking the time to read.

    Best,

    Michael

    I think just using this to make a point about Kyl-Lieberman is probably short-sighted. And I think the Obama campaign sees it this way as well; he said today in the NPR debate, “I was called naive for wanting to negotiate with Iran”, reminding us all that, hey, it looks like I got that one right too, and Hillary, once again, was on the wrong side…

  • To continue the high school analogy-

    Women understand this even better than men. If you’re a woman, do you ever think there’s something wrong with a guy you date just because maybe your picking out the right shade of lipstick had something to do with you picking him up? No. On the contrary, you all understand that all the other women are controlling their appearance and demeanor and stuff like that when they try to pick up men, so women pretty prevalently try to out-compete the other women and look attractive in every way when they try to pick up men. They don’t say, “I can’t go out looking better than I look every day- this is dishonest, and if a guy picks me up when I’m looking my best, it must be because he’s shallow and he was just attracted to how I looked.”

  • You’d think that voting for Bush’s “use of military force” in Iraq would have taught them that Bush lies and cannot be trusted, and they’d be fools to trust the administration. -anney

    You’d think that, but sadly, no. It’s votes like Kyl-Lieberman that remind me of the all time greatest Bushism:

    Fool me once… shame on… shame on you… get fooled, won’t get fooled again.

    For once, I wish the Democrats would heed that advice.

  • lol Doubtful. maybe they are all just being over-cautious to not misunderestimate him.

    (and speaking of which, Racerx, everyone thought Gennifer’s revelation just before New Hampshire was the last nail in Bill’s coffin, too. one should be wary of ever counting Team Clinton out. though they are unlikely to ever refer to it as being “misunderestimated”.)

  • Michael nails it completely.

    “Looking back, much like their original differences in opinion on the war in Iraq, the debate over whether our public support of Musharraf should be, in effect, unconditional; and the debate over how far we should go in pursuing diplomacy with Iran, and more broadly what our posture towards them ought to be, Obama has looked consistently prescient, and Hillary has looked like just another Democrat kowtowing to the hawkish elite currently controlling both the White House and the vast majority of political commentary.”

  • Those who criticize Hillary seem to hold her up to a fictional standard of what she should do or say in a hypothetical Utopian United States of America’s legislature, and forget that she is operating in a real-world environment. While we want Hillary to vote whatever is substantively best, she also has to deal in a world where there is political opposition from the Republicans. It may seem hypocritical at times from certain angles, but that means that besides just voting whatever is substantively best, she also has to worry about countering these lies and storylines they are going to put out there about her. The alternative for our people is that we never win elections and we never get to enforce a legislative policy. A lot of people would not vote for Michael Jackson or Mike Tyson, even if they said everything the voter wanted to hear on policy, just because they’re Michael Jackson or Mike Tyson. If the Republicans can succeed in making you look like Michael Jackson or Mike Tyson, you cannot win.

  • I’ll agree that this becomes a literal Pandora’s Box for Clinton, but it should also cause a good many GOPer candidates to spontaneously burst into flame. None of them have dared blaspheme their beloved Bu$hGod—not once. If they continue to ignore the issue and remain silently supportive of the chimp-in-chief’s policy agendae—with specificity toward Iran—then is becomes the equivalent of tacitly endorsing the intent to commit crimes of war against a sovereign nation—yes?

  • Hillary detractors appear to be thinking with their mouths- you need to learn to do the thinking part first, and the mouthing part second.

    Anyway: It looks like “WWIII” has been averted. A good day for the republic, and a bad day for Cheney/Bush.

  • Swan,

    It may be that so-called “Hillary detractors” just “think” that she made a fundamental mistake, and are “mouthing” their opinions…..

  • Those who criticize Hillary seem to hold her up to a fictional standard of what she should do or say in a hypothetical Utopian United States of America’s legislature, and forget that she is operating in a real-world environment. -Swan

    You’ve got to be kidding with this? Right? Where’s the hidden cameras? Alan Funt? I’m totally on Hidden Camera, right?

    Here’s your “fictional standard:”

    Stop voting in support of unnecessary wars, reckless foreign policy, and Constitutionally challenged encroachments on our civil liberties.

  • As a centrist Liberal, I still look at Iran as well as Iraq as two governments I wouldn’t trust that we need to keep close eyes on. I agree with Hillary’s statement the most. Iran I believe does have Nuclear Weapon ambitions and needs to be carefully monitored. This doesn’t mean by any means to bomb them, but to strengthen diplomatic ties and surveillence and maintain it. I’m in the middle on this one and frankly both Edwards and Obama seem to be pandering a bit to much. Ask yourself Do you trust Iran?

  • Okay, comments 17 and 18- maybe Hillary is as successful as she is in the polls because she has handled herself so well, don’t you think?

    As far as voting in favor of unnecessary wars, it’s got to be a fictional standard if you want her to be prescient enough to know it’s unnecessary. No one’s psychic in real life.

    Doubtful, as far as the so-called reckless foreign policy and constitutional encroachments, these are like ad hominems that you’ve got to back up. Also, as far as the constitutional encroachments go, I think I’ve alluded to the distinction between what a piece of legislation says and how that legislation is enforced, above. It may be that sometimes you get put in a corner where you vote for something that an immoral person is going to use as a weapon for immoral purposes. But the “something” isn’t immoral without the “immoral person using it as a weapon for immoral purposes.” It doesn’t make Hillary a bad person.

    Earthtones, as I think I’ve said in one or two other comments today, the Hillary detractors have to back up what they’re saying, not just spout ad hominems (which seem to me to be the spontaneous gut reactions that come from baseless anti-Hillary conditioning and the unprecedented, viable presidential candidacy of a woman when we still have so much latent sexism).

  • Ask yourself Do you trust Iran?

    That’s an absurd question to ask myself, so I won’t bother.

    Now, do I trust the Iranian government? Not really. But recent history tells me not to trust our government, either. A thinking person realizes that most of Iran’s blustering about nuclear capability has more to do with hype than with reality. Iran is now in a unique position to become a major regional power thanks to us, and they want to capitalize on that potential.

    Just like Saddam didn’t want to broadcast to the world that he didn’t have WMD (so that Iraq seemed stronger and scarier than it really was), Iran didn’t want to broadcast to the world that they had abandoned their nuclear weapons programs (so they would seem stronger and scarier than they really are).

    Play a game of chess and then think about how similar it is to politics. Then ask yourself, is Iran a good chess player?

  • DA

    Israel’s the country I don’t trust. Everybody in the MidEast has more reason to fear them than Iran — Israel is the only ME country with nuclear weapons and has attacked its neighbors repeatedly with conventional weapons, while Iran has not. In a sane world, Israel would be under pressure and sanctions for developing nuclear weapons and delivery systems on the sly. If the world community required Israel to get rid of them, Iran would have no reason at all to want them for standing and self-defense.

  • Doubtful, as far as the so-called reckless foreign policy and constitutional encroachments, these are like ad hominems that you’ve got to back up. -Swan

    JKap, myself, and several others have explained our positions to you several times. You’re being willfully ignorant of our arguments for the purpose of being contrary and trolling.

    Ad hominem means to refute a fact with an attack on someone’s character. I’m not attacking Clinton’s character by saying that the authorization of force in Iraq, Kyl-Lieberman, and her support of NAFTA were reckless foreign policy. I’m not impugning her good name when I say that the Patriot Act is an encroachment on our Constitution; the Supreme Court happened to agree.

    I’ve made my positions clear to you many times with plenty of supporting evidence. You can disagree; I have no problem with that, but instead you continue to ridiculously accuse those who do not support your candidate of being misogynists, or making ad hominem attacks on her character, or living in a fantasy world. You’re certainly not doing Clinton any favors by playing these childish games.

  • John S wrote: “Play a game of chess and then think about how similar it is to politics. Then ask yourself, is Iran a good chess player?”

    Actually Iran isn’t a really good chess player, but when Ahmadhinejad is playing against Bush/Cheney he looks like he’s a Grand Master. Why? because Bush/Cheney are playing checkers on the Chess board. No wonder the rest of the world can’t make sense of what’s going on.

  • Swan, @16: “Hillary detractors appear to be thinking with their mouths-”

    Better than not thinking at all, ducklin’.

    “you need to learn to do the thinking part first, and the mouthing part second.”

    If you followed your own advice, you’d only post on each thread once-twice max, instead of posting 6 times or more. But, no. You confer your pearls on us in little dribs, drabs and droplets; dribble, dribble, dribble.

    And yes, Clinton was a fool to vote “yes” on Kyl-Lieberman; shows that our children isn’t learnin’ (or, at least, that this particular one aren’t) from the ’02 experience.

  • Doubtful wrote: Ad hominem means to refute a fact with an attack on someone’s character.

    Yeah, I know that is what it strictly means, but I was using it in a broad sense (in the sense of an attack that doesn’t respond to the substance of an argument). A lot of people use a lot of English words and terms in a broad sense, like I might say “You’ll hear about it when it goes down-stream” and I don’t mean a stream in the sense of a body of water, but I mean stream for the sense of something that inexorably and continually flows in one direction only- metaphorically to refer to gossip that “flows” in an office from higher-up the chain in command to lower workers, all the time. I expect these kinds of pedantic attacks that no one in real life is ever loser enough to make from commenters on the Carpetbagger Report or Political Animal, so that’s why I said I think “like ad hominem attacks” rather than just calling it ad hominem.

    Doubtful wrote:

    I’m not impugning her good name when I say that the Patriot Act is an encroachment on our Constitution; the Supreme Court happened to agree.

    This is an unfair attack, though. I’m sure you will find many pieces of legislation that people you would have supported voted for, but that some Supreme Court struck down as unsonstitutional. You shouldn’t attack her by making it sound like she’s an enemy of the constitution just because she supported a really big, multi-faceted law that the SC found some portions of unconstitutional. She’s not Hitler. Trying to draw attention to that makes her sound like she’s Justice Taney or something.

    As far as what else you say, I think if you go back and read my comments, there is always a rationale for it if I suspect someone of reacting out of conscious or unconscious misogyny, or if I say an attack is unfair, or being wildly unrealistic. I don’t accuse “those who do not support my candidate” of those things. I call that stuff out when I think I have good reason to and I explain the reason- it usually has to do with something nuts someone said, some really unfair painting-with-a-broad- brush. It’s hardly something I pin on everyone who doesn’t support Hillary. Your calling my comments “childish games” is a wildly unfair description.

    Libra, I shouldn’t have to explain this to you or other commenters, but if I think of something worthwhile to say about a post and then withhold it all day to wait for anything else I might have to say about a post (What do you expect me to do? Write myself notes all day merely to be allowed by your graciousness to participate on Carpetbagger Report?) then I’ll miss a large part of the audience that visits the website- people who just tune in once or twice during the day and then don’t come back. the fact that I post more than other commenters merely reflects that I have more things to say, not that I’m somehow evilly withholding my ideas to spread out over the course of the day for some unimagineable, selfish reason.

  • 28 days till the SS Triangulatin’ Tilly takes the torpedo amidships that shatters the keel and sends all the pinstriped Washington ratpimps running to man the lifeboats.

  • Tom, 28 days from today is January 2. You must’ve dropped a day on the sidewalk somewhere. I think I see it—right over there. Go and pick it up before someone trips over it, sues you into the Stone age, and turns you into a psychotic wRonG Paul cultist.

    Swan, no one is asking you to withhold further thought for hours and hours on end in some evil. twisted plot. (You’re starting to sound like an Acme Anvil Coyote Warner Brothers cartoonish megalomaniac thing. Stop it. Now.) But, some of your comments do come across as extremely fragmented. Your first post, for example, is left just “hangin’ in the wind.” It’s like writing a paper, using the tactic known as a “suspended thesis”—and then you leave that suspended thesis, the thing that wraps the entire comment into a cohesive block, until another post—sometimes, multiple posts.

  • Can we kindly start asking what is teh nature of all this experience the former first lady claims she has?

    She’s like the VP of HR at a fortune 100 company claiming she has CEO experience. They work in teh same building, see the same people, but they don’t do the same work. Not even close.

    Does she really want to put up her experience as the litmus test with Governor Richardson ready and willing? CEO of a fortune 500 company already?

    If experience were gasoline, her needle would be tickling the red zone of her gauge.
    Does anyone think any other first lady had any claim to the Oval Office? A single term as Senator changes everything? Explain, please.

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