Wondering if Republicans are ‘gonna need a bigger boat’

I suppose it’s only natural for partisans in a presidential campaign to look across the aisle and wonder, “Which one of our candidates would the other side least like to face?” It’s hardly a foolproof way of looking at a race — partisans give head-fakes, and more importantly, they can be wrong.

Having said that, I found this item from the National Review’s Byron York pretty interesting.

I went to Barack Obama’s rally [in Columbia, South Carolina] on Sunday night, with a Republican friend who had never seen the Illinois senator in action before. Watching the crowd of more than 3,000 fill up the convention center, watching the people send up waves of energy to Obama, and watching him play off that energy in a speech that was one of the best political performances anyone has seen this year, my Republican friend said, simply, “Oh, s—t.” He recalled the scene from Jaws, in which the small seaside town’s sheriff realizes how big the shark he’s tracking truly is, and says, “We’re gonna need a bigger boat.” What my friend didn’t have to say was that he was deeply worried that Republicans just don’t have a bigger boat. […]

Watching Obama perform at the convention center Sunday night, it’s easy to understand why Bill Clinton is walking around with a look of red-faced frustration these days. Obama represents a mortal threat to his wife’s candidacy, and, given the identity politics that prevail in the Democratic Party, it will be hard to cut his legs out from under him without appearing racist. But there’s no doubt that some Republicans are hoping the Clintons will succeed. Running against the man on stage at the convention center would be a hard, hard campaign, requiring a very big boat.

At a minimum, this seems to create a selling point for Obama. John McCain enjoys telling Republicans that he’s the one candidate Dems don’t want to face. Some find it persuasive, others don’t, but rank-and-file Republicans certainly consider this when weighing the candidates’ merits.

In this sense, I suspect if the Obama campaign sent around York’s column, it might reinforce a similar argument.

Now, it’s fair to say that it’s an over-simplification to tell Dems, “Vote for the one Republicans are afraid of.” That said, there’s something to this, isn’t there? It’s not unreasonable for Dems to hesitate before nominating the candidate Republicans want to face, is it?

I’m reminded of an item the LAT ran several months ago about the 2004 race. Before John Kerry started winning all the contests, Karl Rove, Matt Dowd, and Bush’s political team sized up the Democratic field and concluded that John Edwards was the guy they didn’t want to see get the nomination. As a result, Bush’s operation immediately went after Kerry.

Their thinking went like this, Dowd explained: Democrats, in a knee-jerk reaction to GOP attacks, would rally around Kerry, whom Rove considered a comparatively weak opponent, and make him the party’s nominee. Thus Bush would be spared from confronting Edwards, the candidate Republican strategists actually feared most.

Unlike Kerry, who had been in public service for decades, Edwards was a political newcomer and lacked a long record that could be attacked. And, unlike former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, who had been the front-runner but whose campaign was collapsing in Iowa, Edwards couldn’t easily be painted as “nutty.”

If that sounds implausibly convoluted, consider Dowd’s own words: “Whomever we attacked was going to be emboldened in Democratic primary voters’ minds. So we started attacking John Kerry a lot in the end of January because we were very worried about John Edwards.”

Nicolle Wallace, the 2004 Bush campaign communications director, confirmed all of this and said Rove was so worried about Edwards, BC04 “refused” to even respond to Edwards’ attacks on Bush, not wanting to make him seem like a threat.

Fast forward four years. Republicans are going after Clinton quite a bit, as York’s piece demonstrates they seem pretty nervous about Obama, and they disregard Edwards as uncompetitive.

From where I sit, I see a few possible scenarios:

* Republicans are attacking Clinton for the same reasons Rove & Co. attacked Kerry — they want to face her in November.

* Republicans are attacking Clinton because they fear her as a general-election candidate, and are trying to create negative narratives now to lay the groundwork for the rest of the year.

* Republicans are holding their fire on Obama for the same reasons Rove & Co. ignored Edwards — they don’t want to face him in November.

* Republicans are holding their fire on Obama because they want him to get the nomination, at which point they’ll swiftboat the hell out of him.

It’s worth noting, of course, that the Republicans may be entirely wrong. (It’s been known to happen on occasion.) They may think it’d be easy to defeat Hillary, when she may win in a landslide. They may think Obama would be tough to beat, when the opposite could be true. Who knows; it’s all speculative anyway.

The point I’m weighing here is whether, and to what extent, Dems should care about who Republicans want to face. I’m all ears.

I don’t care who Republicans want. But it is worth knowing who they worry about. That would be someone who would co-opt a chunk of their voters.

““Oh, s—t.” That’s the reaction I’m looking for from Republicans.

But I’ll never let Republicans tell me who to vote for.

  • Great post. Of course I believe this post is exactly right. (BTW – if 9-11 never happened, there would be no stopping Edwards in ’04)

    Meanwhile, the blogosphere goes into naive and often juvenile gymnastics demonizing Obama or Clinton for ridiculous reasons. However, I also think it’s possible HRC is more of a threat than R’s can imagine, if she can clean up among women.

  • I think the far more important piece of data is that Republican voters themselves don’t have the knee-jerk opposition to Obama that they have to Clinton.

    Now, the Clinton partisans will respond that any Democratic candidate will face the fecal tornado once nominated, and that’s true. But it elides another truth, which is that Clinton comes pre-stigmatized; the Republicans have spent 15 years “defining” her, so there’s no need to do any new selling. With Obama, it might be harder to gin up the hate: this is a guy who clearly at least is willing to listen to the other side (I know that’s blasphemy to many here–but consider the Bushian alternative), shares some values generally identified with conservatism (he’s religious, for one, and has clearly risen on merit–which at least used to be a big deal for them), and doesn’t come off as angry or threatening. Sullivan sometimes describes it as “a conservative temperament.”

    As CB notes, Obama could prove to be a lousy general-election candidate or a lousy president. But he also has transformational potential. I’d rather go with that, and give him a chance to peel off some Republican support for a big win, than see the Democrats nominate Clinton and hope their skill at political trench warfare can get the most polarizing politician in the country to 50+1.

  • * Republicans are attacking Clinton because they fear her as a general-election candidate, and are trying to create negative narratives now to lay the groundwork for the rest of the year.

    It’s mostly they fear getting her elected, and they think Obama is easy to take down in the general election via the usual Rove tactics.

    The pro-Obama stuff is a bunch of head-fakes. Why would a Republican write something so pro-Obama when the race is so tight, or Hillary is even the front-runner? Hillary calls Obama ‘frustrated’ on TV the other day, so the Republicans write a column today saying Bill Clinton looks frustrated- to make us think the Clintons think they’re not winning. Hill is the front-runner, so the Republicans write a column claiming Barack fills a room with energy, or is running on his soul, or whatever. Hill looks good on Super Tuesday’s polls, so the Republicans come out with a column poo-pooing Super Tuesday- ever hear that one before? It’s as if they’re saying “Stay in, Barack, hold on for dear life!!”

    It’s simple, really.

  • That would be one hell of a race, and I am guessing it would be a race that focuses on each candidate’s plans for the future vs. bringing up topics like “past representation of slum lords.”

  • I am a regular reader (“lurker?”) of this blog but I find this post a prime example of useless and potentially damaging speculation. The post is undercut by its qualifiers and recitation of multiple possibilities. I probably could think of others. However it is pointless. Democrats need to stop worrying about what Republican operatives and politicians think or say and focus on their core values and promote their best candidate. I have long since ignored people like Karl Rove whose only principles appear to be power and self-promotion.

  • Republicans will rise up out of their graves to vote against Clinton and that won’t help Dems in down-ticket races one bit. Running Hillary is the only way I can conceive of the Dems managing to lose both the presidency and the Congress in one fell swoop.

  • I’ve long held the belief that Hillary does the Republican’s GOTV for them. She IS the candidate they want to face.

    Whether she can make them sorry for that remains to be seen.

    I’ve seen plenty of comments along the lines of York’s, and they are encouraging I think they are exaggerative. I think Obama brings more potential, and better coattails to the race than Hillary, but I’m not convinced he’ll romp to the degree indicated by York.

  • On the whole, I think if the American people actually sat down and watched a couple of his speeches, I think he’d win in a landslide. However, I don’t have that much faith that the American public will be even that minimally informed – and will be immune to the Muslim and other racist smears – unfortunately.

    I am an Obama supporter, but I can’t guarantee that his inspirational presence can overcome the relentless news cycles of smearing that he will face from the rethuglicans.

    On the other hand, I think the Republicans can’t wait to face Hillary and let loose on her. And just imagine how much fun they would have in congress should she actually win in Nov crushing every initiative she puts forward – for which they would be loved by their base.

  • Its painfully obvious who the Repub’s want to run against.

    It is HRC and she’ll unite the GOPistas and motivate them to GOTV like no other.

  • * Republicans are attacking Clinton because they fear her as a general-election candidate, and are trying to create negative narratives now to lay the groundwork for the rest of the year.

    Because obviously they don’t have those negative narratives well established already.

  • I think there’s another possibility, which is that The Right is so overwrought with Clinton Derangement syndrome that they’ll accept anything but another Clinton.

  • It’s funny that in the polls, more Democrats think Hillary would win in the general, but once you read a blog, more people on the comments page think Obama would be good in the general.

    It reminds you that there are a lot of scummy people on the Internet who spend a lot of time obsessing about things they shouldn’t. Anybody can type eight different handles into a box or even use a bunch of different computers, if they want to be especially careful no one discovers they’re “raiding.” That way the public doesn’t find out from some blogger that a bunch of raiding has been going on on blogs, and they don’t become suspect of the stuff they read on blogs and in comments.

  • It’s pretty weird that Hillary has at least as many supporters as Obama does, but Obama has so many more comments supporting him on blogs. If this is not explained by Dems in general being too shy or humble to spend time writing about politics in blog comments, with motivated pro-life psycho Republicans filling in the blanks as raiders, what explains it? Is there something about being pro-Hillary that make you just hate the Internet?

    I think my theory is actually Occam’s Razor.

  • Or is it a double fake?

    Blast the one you hate because Dems will assume you’re laying off the one the one you want therefore vote for the one the Republicans are hitting because THIS year they assume you’re using last year’s playbook.

    Who cares. It’s not worth worrying about.

    I’ll vote Obama because he has the smartest views on the issues and if he wins,. he’ll do the best job (of those still running. Dodd would have been great.)

  • GOPers have all their swiftboat eggs in the Hillary basket. They’ve been Hillary-bashing since ’06 on a regular basis. They’ve defined her as the red meat with which to feed their knuckle-dragging legions. Now—with untold millions spent on combating Opponent A; with most of their “field of shining-armor knights” either gone or crippled by funding problems; with their greatest weapons being a flip-flopping trainwreck who can’t even decide which religion he belongs to and a guy who’s having to fund his own campaign while being tarred as a heretic by the WingNuttia Martyr’s Brigade; with the possible disaster of a brokered convention, followed by a shortened campaign season—they get a “Candidate B” thrown at them that’s a viable threat?

    The ReThugs could now have to deal with a Democratic opponent who can take the Reagan card, and play it right back at them. They still have wet-dreams about the victories gained via the “Reagan Democrats”—and now they risk facing the polar opposite—the nightmare scenario of “Obama Republicans.” The ability of such a bad dream for the GOP also brings into their darkest fears the very real possibility of some serious down-ticket damage in the Congress.

    Think “Contract With America” in reverse—and then extrapolate that to the Neocon/Theocon mindset. Mass quantities of exploding uberschweinen heads comes to mind….

  • The Right is so overwrought with Clinton Derangement syndrome that they’ll accept anything but another Clinton

    See, for me that is part of the attraction. I consider it an important medical experiment – at some level of exposure, does CDS become fatal? If we give them another Clinton, will their heads explode? This is important medical research; inquiring minds want to know! (Note to self: apply for federal research grant. . .)

  • For me, there’s no doubt the Republicans want to face Hillary Clinton in the General, because they believe they can beat her. I wouldn’t put it past them to be discreetly aiding her campaign, or passing it anti-Obama information in an effort to lock up the nomination for her.

    As we’ve discussed, and as a particularly acrimonious thread a couple of days ago bore out, Hillary is a polarizing candidate. Most people who support liberalism in general would vote for Obama in the General even if they had wanted Hillary to win. It doesn’t seem to work the opposite way – plenty of people said they would never vote for Hillary under any circumstances, and some suggested they would vote Republican instead. More importantly than the polarization of the Democratic party that Clinton inspires, she would be a one-woman get-out-the-vote galvanizing force for the Republicans – hardcore conservatives would crawl over broken glass to keep the Clintons from occupying the White House again. Never mind the rueful “we deserve to lose, after the way we’ve behaved” that was semi-privately expressed by some Republicans in advance of the last elections, when the Republicans lost their majority. Al that would evaporate the minute Clinton took the stage with her hands clasped above her head in victory.

    There’s something to be said for the notion that Democrats shouldn’t let Republicans decide for them who they should shove into the ring. Consider also, though, the opinion of a commenter on the WaPo site – who suggested a Clinton win would spell the death of liberalism in America for a generation. Perhaps there’s something to that: the young people have been coming out in droves, like nothing seen in decades, and they overwhelmingly go for Obama. Idealism is alive again, and idealism is decidedly a liberal value – the janus face of ideology. What inspires idealism? Experience? Hardly. It’s change, and I can’t see any way Hillary can morph herself into the candidate of change after basing her whole lunge for the brass ring on experience.

  • I think electability arguments aren’t compelling because they can be made for both Clinton and Obama. Yes, the name “Clinton” does excite the Republican base and the media will bash in the general campaign like they did Gore. However, I think because Obama is less well known, the R’s will have a much easier time defining him than Clinton. I fear that Obama will overwhelmed by conservative pundits talking 24/7 about his “muslim background”, about his druggie past, about how he will be “the first woman president” and that he wants to provide health care for illegal immigrants. I would rather pick the candidate I think will make the best President.

  • Do I think about electability? Sure I do. But I think any of the top three candidates will get elected President, given the war in Iraq is still going on (time isn’t on the GOPs side on that issue) and the economy is crapping out. I think it’s more important to not go for the mushy middle in hopes of winning big, but to go for a win that will actually change the direction of this country. You do that by being up front, like Reagan was in 198, before the election and that way get a real mandate for change.

  • Swan said:
    Huh? Mayhap the people who take the time to post on blogs actually take the time to know a little bit about politics.

    Polls also indicate that a majority believe that the First Amendment goes too far. They also indicate that two out of three Americans can’t find Iraq on a map of the world.

    As for “It reminds you that there are a lot of scummy people on the Internet who spend a lot of time obsessing about things they shouldn’t…” Please post, for our instruction, a list of those things about which we shouldn’t obsess.

    Thanks for throwing shit at everyone who seems to disagree with you.

  • I think the people excited about Obama are exactly that. Excited. And therefore there are more comments and vocal support. Clinton’s support is more of a default, establishment support, and there aren’t as many people running around on horseback shouting about it.

    Doesn’t mean the actual quantities are represented.

    The question about electibility, to me, is less about who comes to the nominee brings to the party (figuratively and literally) but who comes out of the woodwork to block them.

    I think Obama has the potential to bring more support (you might disagree) but I think Hillary pretty clearly starts out with more opposition.

  • The point I’m weighing here is whether, and to what extent, Dems should care about who Republicans want to face. I’m all ears.

    None. Zero. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

    No weight at all should be given to which candidate Republicans apparently want to face. Because you cannot trust the answer they give. Your bullet points show this perfectly.

    Hell, the fact that they’re ignoring Edwards completely probably makes him the candidate that they fear the most. I think they’re equally happy at their chances of taking down either Clinton OR Obama – one because she’s a woman, a Clinton and a “ball buster”, the other because he’s black, has a name that sounds Muslim, and he’s admitted in print to doing drugs as a kid. Frankly, 8 years ago either of these candidates would have been a gift to the smear machine of the GOP. Today neither one of them is going to be nearly as easy to beat as the right-wingers may think.

    (I’m always reminded that the Dems were hoping that Reagan would get the nomination in ’80 because he was perceived as the “easiest of the GOP to beat”. That worked out nicely for the Dems, didn’t it. Same thing on the GOP side this year – whichever one they think will be “easiest to beat” still has a very good chance of handing them their heads in a bag come election day.)

  • I think the far more important piece of data is that Republican voters themselves don’t have the knee-jerk opposition to Obama that they have to Clinton. -dajafi

    I think this is far more important than the strategy of the GOP machine; which Democrat can introduce Democracy to a broader audience?

    It’s funny that in the polls, more Democrats think Hillary would win in the general, but once you read a blog, more people on the comments page think Obama would be good in the general. -Swan

    Because some of us recognize it isn’t about what more Democrats think in the general, it’s what more voting citizens of all political affiliations think. As long as we are still bound by the Electoral College, a landslide victory in California doesn’t mean squat if you lose all of the same ‘red’ states as Kerry did in 2004.

    We have to flip some to win, and the easiest way to do that is to pick a candidate who appeals to voters broadly or at least one who isn’t, as Mr. Furious said, the entire GOTV for the Republican party.

  • HRC will unite and fire up the Republicans and drive away virtually all the Independents.

    Obama would attract younger Republicans with normal+ IQs and most of the Independents. That is, IF the electorate isn’t as secretly racist as I believe it to be.

    I support the candidate corporations loathe and fear. I’d rather lose with Edwards — not likely this time around — than bend over for multinational corporations.

    How about Edwards-Obama?

  • Yes, HRC will provide some motivation for the hardcore right, who will savage her even worse than they have in the past. What is unknown are two things: (1) will they be so otherwise demoralized that this impact will be negligable? (which I suspect may be the case, but would not count on it); and (2) I firmly believe that the moderate, suburban, educated Republican women (those once-famous, allegedly election-determining soccer moms) will vote HRC in droves — and more important, the more the knuckle-dragging “women should submit” faction of the party savages HRC, the more of these moderate Republican women cross over for HRC. Do not underestimate the first-female-President draw. There are bi-partisan/non-partisan groups like the White House Project that have held and worked for this dream for decades.

  • I’ve been screaming this for the rooftops for months, from way back when I could still support a Hillary candidacy if need be: She is the GOP’s only hope in November. The likelihood of her attracting enough independent candidates to compensate for the droves of wingnuts eagerly voting against her and Bill is laughable. Triply so if she’s up against McCain. Further, she will do serious damage to Democrats in tough races. That’s why all these red state Dems are coming out for Obama: They’re terrified. And now she and Bill have turned off me and just about everyone I know, diminishing the core base of Democratic support they will desperately need to get the 50+1 “majority” they’re hoping for. I’m so peeved at the Clintons’ sliming of a good man who’s running for the right reasons that I’ll vote for McCain or whoever as a protest vote.

  • Swan:

    I think it’s largely demographics: People who post to blogs skew young and skew male, where Obama runs stronger. Also, once a particular blog gets past a tipping point of uniformity, people with other views lose interest in posting and go away.

  • I think HRC will fire up GOTV among women. We have already seen this effect in the early primaries. This will help down-ballot too, women skew Democratic.

  • This election is unlike any other. After the horrors of Bush and with the tried and failed republican policies being a disaster, with the obstructionism in the senate, and with the current GOP field promising more of the same it’s ridiculous to think that any republican will win the WH this election. ANY republican. They have no plans and their entire campaign will be nothing but attack and smear because they have failed miserably on all the issues to the point that the majority in this country are enraged and dedicated to voting them out of office. All the GOP is doing now with the media is trying…I said trying to make their candidates look credible. They aren’t. The only real race for the presidency is within the democratic party. Whoever wins the democratic nomination will be the next president…period. The republicans can claim being competitive all they want but we just can’t wait to vote them out.
    This all makes for pretty media fodder though doesn’t it. The Bush administration had the full support of the republican party on everything. Voting for them is just another vote for Bush…what were his ratings again?

  • Dennis and Doug at 7 and 9 also have the strong points here about electability, coattails, GotV, and the near-certainty of gridlock in a second Clinton administration.

    But the Clintons, like the Sopranos they increasingly resemble, gotta get wut dey gotta get.

  • ***ps Laure***Better check the polls…Hillary is overwhelmingly winning independent voters
    I’m not a Hillary supporter but would vote for her if she wins the nomination. McCain against Hillary…hahahahahahah. Either you want more of this shit or you don’t..

  • The GOP ignore Edwards because he represents their worst nightmare. Anti greed and corporatism.

  • having Sen Clinton win the democratic nomination would certainly make my life easier in south carolina. all i would have to do is concentrate on the state and local races for november.

    during this primary season where i live:

    i am not seeing so many independents and moderate republicans coming out for Sen Clinton as i am for Sen Obama.

    in my very red area of SC, well over 2000 (people turned away b/c of fire codes) came to see Sen Obama one week and almost 1000 came to see Sen Clinton a few weeks later.

    people come into our local dem party headquarters asking for Obama signs and apologizing for voting for Bush in 2004.

    i personally know several republicans who made a point to tell me that they voted early for Sen Obama. i asked them was it because they didn’t want Sen Clinton to win — they said yes BUT they added that they didn’t like ANY of their candidates. so they are suppporting Obama in the general, too.

  • Hillary will polarize the election. More and more she slips into her true character.

    I, for one, will not vote for her. The Clintons had their time at the party…its time for them to go home, now.

    Obama, OTOH, is exciting as heck. I mean, how can you not be energized by that guy?

  • Byron York is a bit behind the curve on this. The GOP has already gotten itself a bigger boat – The Titanic. Yes, the GOP is taking on water, and some of their more intelligent leaders are drilling holes in the hull to let the water out! -Kevo

  • I think Obama is a terrific candidate, but anybody who thinks a black man will be elected in America at this point in time is dreaming.

    Between the closet racists throughout the country and the overt racists we see and hear every day…forget it.

    The polling says about 20-25% of America will not vote for a black person…(and we ALL know how honest people are when polled)…which tells you that at least 40%+ won’t.

    If he gets the nomination, John McCain will be our next President.

  • They may think it’d be easy to defeat Hillary, when she may win in a landslide.

    No. Freaking. Way.

    Her negatives are too high. Even among us Dems, her negatives are seriously high. She might win, but it wouldn’t be by a landslide unless the R’s picked some loser like Keyes.

    They’re actually afraid of Obama, and if he hooks up with Edwards the GOP is truly screwed.

  • Obama might appeal to Republican voters and independents — but he might not. It depends on what the right-wing smear machine does to him in the general election, which for my money will be along the “weakling” lines of what they did to Kerry. HRC has withstood everything the smear machine could throw (murder accusations, for god’s sake), and still managed to get elected Senator from New York, where upstate conservatives initially hated her. She pays attention to details (Obama admits he doesn’t), she works her ass off for her constituents (why she got reelected in NY with an impressive majority) and she’s got a far deeper “rolodex” of bright, capable people to call on for her administration than Obama does at the moment. As for the irrational hatred (and nobody can ever tell me just what she’s done to deserve it, other than “I just don’t trust her.”), I think it might win the Republicans a few extra votes, but only a few. And I think there are at least as many who want out of Iraq who will think twice before voting for “100 years in Iraq” McCain. They won’t vote for Hillary, either, but they won’t vote against her.

  • 1) It’s a given Reps will swift-boat whichever Dem gets the nomination and that MSM will parrot charges without challenge. That Center for Public Integrety survey today counting lies from the Bush Administration was largely due to willful enabling from their friends at Fox, CNN and MSNBC.
    2) Coming out of Iowa in 2004, the primary compliment paid to Kerry was “most electable.” Considering voter turnouts this year and a pile full of policy disasters that the Republicans supported unanimously, it would be a really bad idea to try and outthink the voters in a general election. It would also be the easiest way for the MSM to manipulate the outcome.
    3) The one thing we should be taking from the polls in this primary season is that ALL ELECTIONS NEED TO BE AUDITED!!!

  • A lot of political afficionados don’t seem to recognize problems that are very simple- that are prone to being “over-thunk.”

    If you’re a thoughtful type, it can be disappointing to face, but a lot of voters, when faced with a minority guy named Barack Hussein Obama and an old experienced white male Senator named John McCain, they are going to feel a lot more comfortable with McCain. They are not going to be as informed as you and me about politics, and they are going to be more racist than you and me, and they are going to be so ignorant that they are much more likely to think that the chances any other Republican really is going to be as bad as Bush are really low. So long as McCain does not make gaffes worse than Bush they are going to feel more comfortable passing up Barack for McCain, especially when the devious little propagandists of the GOP get to working on them.

  • Swan: “…a lot of voters, when faced with a minority guy named Barack Hussein Obama and an old experienced white male Senator named John McCain, they are going to feel a lot more comfortable with McCain.”

    Correcto Mundo.

    Anybody who thinks racism is dead in America is out of their mind…it’s alive and well.

  • Dennis wrote:

    Huh? Mayhap the people who take the time to post on blogs actually take the time to know a little bit about politics.

    I think it’s more likely that a bunch of you posting anti-Hillary comments are trolls than that all of you are just so much smarter about who the regular schmoe wants to vote for than the regular schmoe himself.

    It’s interesting that not only is Clinton winning in the latest Super Tuesday polls, but polls of Democrats about who they think is most likely to win in the general show they think Hillary is most likely to win. These polls are not designed to find just the Matt Ys and Kevin Drums and get answers from them- nor are they designed to get the opinon of the know-it-all commenter who never sees the ouitside of his cubicle or his bedroom- they get everybody’s opinion, so they’re based on people who actually know what regular people think about the different candidates. I’d trust Kevin Drum to know more about the differences between Dom Perignon, Merlot, table wine, etc., than he does about that.

  • Obama packages progressive issues as mainstream, reasonable, Realistic.

    It’s like measuring the Treaty of Versailles versus the Marshall Plan! The Clintons are poison to the whole reconciliation process.

  • Anybody who thinks racism is dead in America is out of their mind…it’s alive and well. -Geno

    The polling says about 20-25% of America will not vote for a black person… -Geno

    …when faced with a minority guy named Barack Hussein Obama and an old experienced white male Senator named John McCain, they are going to feel a lot more comfortable with McCain. -Swan

    Geno, seems like that’s about the same percentage as the GOP base…coincidence? I don’t really think so; they aren’t voting Democratic to begin with.

    Swan, Geno: what makes you so sure that a racist who won’t vote for a black man is someone who would be open minded enough to vote for a woman? Don’t you think that both Clinton and Obama would face serious prejudices?

    There may be some truth to the argument zeitgeist posited: that Hillary will do very well with women. The exit polls certainly support that, but mostly in closed primary states. Will that translate to moderate Republicans and independents?

    I think it’s more likely that a bunch of you posting anti-Hillary comments are trolls… -Swan

    Yeah, yeah, everyone who disagrees with you is a troll. Actually, they are all me…I keep commenting under several different names just to mess with you. I’ve been doing it for years, actually, so that when you finally made your accusations that I could point out the longevity of each alias as a defense.

    Can you figure out which 9 pseudonyms I use? 3…2…1..GO!

  • The common thread I see is political attack traction. They had (as they saw it) traction on Kerry via swifties. And they will have traction on Clinton via her being Clinton. They did not have an easy foothold to launch attacks on Edwards then or now, nor Obama. Attacks are the only way they know to play, in the way a carpenter will fix every problem with a hammer.

    In my opinion, I don’t think this translates into anything any dem should worry about.

  • Doubtful @ 46 – you don’t use my pseudonym, I do! hmm…I think. Grin.

    Yet – you’re on to something, I’m glad its just not me reading into things here. Swan @ 44, why just is that anyone that disagrees with you is classified as a Troll by you.

    IMHO, All the posters above that disagree with you don’t seem to fall in one of the definitions found at this site:
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Blog+Troll

    What do you consider a troll?

  • Swan asks: “Geno: what makes you so sure that a racist who won’t vote for a black man is someone who would be open minded enough to vote for a woman?”

    I don’t have the foggiest idea, but I’ll lay odds she has a better chance than anyone who is of color. (I don’t know where you grew up, but I come from a major Midwestern city and there is still an amazing degree of racism there.)

    Bill’s experience and popularity throughout the world will certainly help, too.

    He’s still considered a hero by many of the world’s leaders…and I see none of that via Obama.

  • Chris –
    And they will have traction on Clinton via her being Clinton. They did not have an easy foothold to launch attacks on Edwards then or now, nor Obama.

    Pass me some of what you’re smoking, Chris, because I could use a hit of the good stuff.

    They had traction with Edwards until they stopped and decided ignoring him was the better strategy. He’s part of one of the most demonized professions in the country for crying-out-loud. He’s also rich and good looking (which means “effeminate and gay” once the smear machine gets done with it). Had it come down to Edwards vs. Bush they would have had plenty of footholds. Getting Kerry as the nominee just made it easier on them because he had a few more.

    And Obama? Please – again a black man who has admitted doing drugs and whose name sounds “Muslim”. And that’s just the start of it – wait until they start dredging out and spinning more of his activist background (the stuff he’s downplaying now even though it looks good to the “Dem base”).

    If you like Obama for Obama that’s great. If you like Edwards for Edwards that’s great too. But don’t pretend like these guys are going to have any extra-special armor against the mud and the attacks that Clinton isn’t going to have. They’re all “good” targets as far as the smear machine is concerned and by the time the November election rolls around whoever the Dem nominee is will be in the same boat Clinton is in now (look how they were able to ramp up hate for a boring milquetoast centrist like John Kerry – if they can do that to him, they can do it to anyone).

  • I monitored the presidential race in 2000 for an independent organization. I still get emails from the Republican side and not the Dems, which I think is an interesting side commentary on Democratic organization.
    But anyhoo, this came into my email inbox:

    Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are raking in the campaign cash hand-over-fist.

    They begin 2008 having raised more than $200 million combined. In the first eight days of this year, Barack Obama’s campaign bragged they had raised over $8 million — and Hillary Clinton’s campaign is right there with him.

    Last year, Democrat presidential contenders and Democrat party committees combined raised more than Republicans. Liberal special interests are raising hundreds of millions of dollars from Big Labor, Hollywood elites and radical protest groups like MoveOn.org to defeat Republicans in November.

    The Democrats and their liberal special interest allies will spend and say whatever it takes to win total control of the government. They are determined to push our country to
    the Left.

    Whoever the Democrat nominee ultimately is, we already know their vision for the future. Both Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama want to:

    Implement massive tax increases that punish hard-working American families in order to pay for new government bureaucracies. Give government instead of patients and doctors more power and control over health care; and, Retreat from the War on Terror and cut off funding for our men and women in uniform.
    We cannot allow a return of the high taxes, big government, weakened national security style of governing that Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama embody.

    This is pretty mild but I’m sure the Republican slime machine is getting ready to gear up.

  • The ONLY thing that worries me about Obama is Rezco. Is there another shoe yet to drop?

    I think Obama/Edwards would be killer. But Edwards has alluded to not accepting a VP slot. I think sticking Obama in the VP slot really might undermine the enthusiasm of the black electorate who could read it as placing him subordinate to a white nominee, and implying he’s (read: they’re) not ready yet.

  • Different Chris but same sentiment…Republicans are salivating for Clinton to be the nominee. Even if she squeeks by the general election with a slim majority, they know that they have a juicy target(s) for four years before the next election as well (great for right-wing media ratings too).

    Another issue to consider is Michael Bloomberg. If Obama wins, he stays out–if Clinton wins, he gets in.

  • The Republicans want people to believe they “want” Clinton, but anybody who follows politics knows Clinton will wipe up McCain or anyone they throw out there.

    Especially with Bill along for the ride.

  • Geno (#55) said:

    The Republicans want people to believe they “want” Clinton, but anybody who follows politics knows Clinton will wipe up McCain or anyone they throw out there.

    Especially with Bill along for the ride.

    That’s true, just like everyone knew the primary race would be over before it started, with Clinton easily capturing 70+% of the vote in every contest.

    Oh wait. That didn’t happen? Now I feel stupid…

    I think there are quite a few people here who follow politics, and a Clinton victory in the general is FAR from a foregone conclusion.

  • I’m really glad Democrats are starting to take notice of this article (its not the only one!) and consider its implications.

    Nony (& others) –

    Its not so much the idea that Obama has some kind of special armor that Clinton lacks… goodness knows, if anyone has had the opportunity to build up a protective shell, its Clinton (personally, I find that shell unappealing, but thats just me). For one thing, I think the lines of attack against Obama mentioned above are, in large part, ridiculous and easily debunked. Do we really think that by the end of a long national presidential campaign the semi-informed electorate will still actually believe that Obama is a Muslim mancherian candidate? I don’t. There just isn’t a lot of gray area there.

    For another, I think people in post-90’s America are going to be slightly more inclined to believe negative things about Clinton than they are about Obama, because I think a lot of people (moderates and partisans alike) have an uneasy feeling about the Clintons when it comes to honesty. The entire Bill Clinton presidency was in many ways a political nightmare for Democrats, what with all the bickering and ridiculous scandals, and the Clintons for better or worse fed that with careless actions and then arrogance and dishonestly after the fact. I’m not blaming them entirely, of course – not at ALL. But all the little lies that we KNOW the Clintons told left a lot of us with a bad taste. So we take their words with a grain of salt. That creates fertile ground for right wing fueled rumors to grow.

    And one more thing – I know that an Obama ticket would get a lot of flak from the GOP. The general will not be a cakewalk for any Democratic candidate. But I genuinely don’t think that the right will be able to manufacture the kind of vitrol for Obama that they regularly pelt Hillary with. Seriously. Read their blogs, read their comments. The day before that TNR article was released, I was reading the comments on the Democratic debate over at the National Review’s The Corner. Go skim through them. I know they want to hate Obama. I think they know that, too. But what they say doesn’ reflect it. They end up saying silly things like “while I know that an Obama presidency would be a political disaster for us, he really is intelligent. And he has a sense of humor. I wouldn’t mind having dinner with the man.”

    Can you imagine any right-of-center pundit saying that about Hillary, anytime, under any circumstances?

    Read what David Brooks has said about him. Or George Will. Andrew Sullivan is a fan to the point of obsessiveness – and I can count on one hand the number of substantial things the two of them would agree on, policy-wise.

    Obama genuinely does appeal to people outside of the party – just like Reagan did. We need to use that to our advantage.

  • Addison,
    Look up how many candidates, who weren’t already President, won the “early” primaries…then went on to be elected.

    It’s all about $$$$$$$$$$$$ and the “machine.”

  • Geno,

    Agreed, but Obama has just as much money as Clinton, if not more. They will probably spend tons of money trying to beat each other over the next few weeks, and then have to go back to the well for the general election. I expect the Democratic candidate to have a money advantage over the Republicans, but I don’t see a $ advantage for Clinton vs. Obama.

  • (#54) Chris too said:

    Different Chris but same sentiment…Republicans are salivating for Clinton to be the nominee. Even if she squeeks by the general election with a slim majority, they know that they have a juicy target(s) for four years before the next election as well (great for right-wing media ratings too).

    Um, Chris, Republicans REALLY hate Hillary Clinton. No, I mean they Really. Hate. Her. Being able to complain on talk radio for 4 years will be precious little consolation to right wingers when faced with 4 years of Clinton + Democratic Congress.

  • I don’t understand what type of myopic viewpoint would lead one to wonder whether or not Obama would theoretically appeal to Independents. Not only is he already appealing to Independents and Republicans, he’s doing so in large enough numbers and with enough intensity to actually get them to change their registration to Democrat and participate in Dem primaries. You think tha’ts gonna change b/c the Repub candidate starts saying the same things the Clinton campaign has been saying for the last month? Please.

    First step: let’s engage in reality. And that means, Swan, shut up with the bullshit about trolls and such. Or get a tin foil hat. Whatever floats your boat.

    Zeitgest: good point about women; that’s a fair point. But you seem to agree that Hillary fires up the GOP base, right? Doesn’t that counter-act a lot of her advantage straight out?

  • Either Clinton or Obama will beat whomever the GOP nominates. Personally I think that will be Romney because of the closed primaries coming up but that really doesn’t matter. A Democrat will be the next president.

    What we need for a Democratic president to succeed is a big majority in both Houses of Congress, especially the Senate. I simply cannot see Hillary effectively campaigning for candidates in tight races in red or purple states (or even in places like the 4th district of California where I live and Doolittle just retired).

    I don’t generally like to extrapolate from my own universe of friends, family, and acquaintances but the trend is too hard to ignore. I know lots of Republicans who would vote for Obama because the much publicized malaise with all the GOP candidates is true. But NONE of them would vote for Hillary and would never stay home on election day. As was noted frequently in this chain, Hillary is a one person GOTV machine for the GOP. She will get her 50+1 — bet the ranch — but a lot of congressional dems will just get 49 due to high GOP turnout.

  • Zeitgest: good point about women; that’s a fair point. But you seem to agree that Hillary fires up the GOP base, right? Doesn’t that counter-act a lot of her advantage straight out?

    Maybe. I do agree that she fires up the base. I am not as convinced as conventional wisdom that (a) she fires it up enough to overcome their malaise or (b) that the incremental amount she fires it up will be that much more a potential black president. or for that matter anyone who has been put through the slime machine. by the end in 2004, they had people fired up that Kerry would be like electing Satan incarnate – and I’m sorry, its hard to get particularly emotional in any direction about Kerry.

    But part of me – and admittedly perhaps not the most strategic part – refuses to engage in that calculus at all. I believe the right-wing trashing of her has been wildly unfair, that they demonized her because of her snark about Tammy Wynette and baking cookies, and for daring to want to do more than wear pearls and pick the china or read to kids, and that she has been made into something she is not. It offends my sense of justice to let them wrongly demonize her, and then point out she is not electable because they wrongly demonized her. And the more people want to let the Republican bullying win, the more they want to let the whackos on the far right base dictate our choices, the more inclined I am to push back. That just isn’t how it should work. And if the win is 50%+1, we still have stood up to their unfair sliming and won – which, in the long run, is how you stop them from engaging in unfair sliming. I know it is a bit risky given the stakes, but I am confident enough in her as a candidate and confident enough in the environment that I think it is a good time to stand up to the slime machine once and for all.

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