Would Dems consider an ‘abortion reduction’ plank to the platform?

The Democratic Party platform, for years, has made it clear that it is a pro-choice party. Likewise, the Republican Party platform, for years, has emphasized that it’s a pro-life party. There’s very little wiggle room in either case. In fact, John McCain, not too long ago, wanted to alter the GOP platform to say the party makes an exception for rape and incest, but McCain quickly backed down when Republican activists told him that would be unacceptable.

But on the Democratic side, this may be the subject of an interesting debate.

Before the Democrats convene in Denver, the Rev. Jim Wallis plans to urge Barack Obama to go along with adding an “abortion reduction” plank to the party platform.

“Abortion reduction should be a central Democratic Party plank in this election,” Wallis told ABC News. “I’ll just say that flat out.”

Wallis, who hosted a Democratic candidates’ forum on CNN last year, discussed his plans after defending Obama against Dr. James Dobson’s charge that the Illinois Democrat distorted the traditional understanding of the Bible when he spoke to Wallis’s Sojourners group in 2006.

Beyond his plans to make a personal plea to Obama, Wallis said that he pitched the idea last week to DNC Chairman Howard Dean. The Rev. Tony Campolo, who sits on the party’s platform committee, also supports the plank and plans to push it, according to Wallis.

Wallis said this isn’t about undermining the pro-choice language of the platform. “You don’t have to call for criminalizing anyone,” he said. “You don’t have to take a different stance about a woman’s right to choose. But you begin with the need for reducing abortion dramatically.”

I’m not at all familiar with the platform-creation process, but there might be something to this.

In 1992, Bill Clinton came up with what I’ve long argued was the ideal pro-choice message: “Safe, legal, and rare.” “Safe” addressed the horrific dangers of back-alley abortions that would result from a ban; “legal” addressed the constitutional reproductive rights afforded to all women; and “rare” made the concession that some find abortion morally offensive, but we can do more to prevent unwanted pregnancies — and by extension, lower the number of abortions.

In this sense, Wallis’ recommendation — depending on wording and details, of course — may be a way of formalizing in the platform the “safe, legal, and rare” construction that the party has embraced for a while anyway.

The abortion reduction plank that Wallis envisions would call for making adoption easier, supporting low-income women, and stepping up pregnancy prevention efforts.

Without calling for restrictions such as parental consent laws, Wallis believes that if the Democrats were to alter their abortion platform, it could help them make inroads among young evangelicals and Catholics.

“Taking abortion seriously as a moral issue would help Democrats a great deal with a constituency that is already leaning in their direction on poverty and the environment,” said Wallis. “There are literally millions of votes at stake.”

If the platform will continue to make clear that the party is a pro-choice party, and will only articulate Dems’ commitment to reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies through progressive means, then this shouldn’t be too controversial.

I’m reminded of a bill Senate Dems unveiled in 2005 called the Prevention First Act, sponsored by Harry Reid (pro-life) and Hillary Clinton (pro-choice), which aimed to reduce the number of abortions by taking prevention seriously — through a combination of family-planning programs, access to contraception, and teen-pregnancy prevention programs. Barack Obama and 25 other Senate Dems signed on as co-sponsors, and NARAL endorsed the effort. There was, Dems agreed, nothing inconsistent about being pro-choice and working to reduce the number of abortions.

(Predictably, the religious right criticized the idea — Dobson famously said “there is no middle ground” on abortion — and Senate Republicans refused to even consider the bill.)

I mention this because if Dems were on board with the Prevention First Act, then an “abortion reduction” plank to the party platform may not be too big a stretch. Something to keep an eye on.

Seems like a no brainer to me, because it is already the way most Dems, and probably most independants, think about abortion.

  • Men should shut up about abortion. It is simply none of their business. It is only between a woman and her doctor. Progressives should not be interfering in a woman’s private business.

  • No. No. No. No. No.

    No FUCKING way.

    Obama is doing well enough with a chunk of pro-lifers who are open to the rest of his policies. But if he takes on this absolutely dunderheaded idea, it will look like triangulation, stealth conservatism, and an outright sellout. He will piss off many women, pro-choicers and progressives, especially after FISA, Muslim issues, etc.

    Yes, I know that pro-choice policies, along with liberal attitudes on contraception, mean fewer abortions in the long run. Making it a plank of the platform, however, will arouse a lot of suspicion that Obama is not as liberal on this issue as he should be.

    Clinton got a pass on this from some feminists because, well, she’s a WOMAN. Other feminists hated it. Expect Obama to get a hell of a lot less slack and benefit of the doubt if he tries a similar stunt. If you want to give people a gift-wrapped chance to say that McCain and Obama aren’t much different on abortion rights, this is the way to do it.

    Remember — for FUCK’S sake — those polls showing that a large chunk of women who supported McCain withdrew their support once they learned of his stance on abortion. No way, no how, should Obama be perceived as moving closer to McCain on this issue.

    He doesn’t have to do this. He shouldn’t do this. SRSLY.

  • In my experience, the people who vote against Democrats on this issue really don’t care about the reduction argument. It’s I’m pro-life, I’m voting Republican, period. I would really not expect millions of votes to be swayed by this effort. Honestly, how many people pay attention to party platforms anyway?

  • The irony, of course, is that health care, realistic sex education, and other pro-woman and pro-rationality policies are themselves abortion reduction policies.

  • Considering this is the view I express to my Republican friends regarding pro-choice and pro-life, I think it is quite reasonable. We can strive to reduce unwanted pregnancies without resorting to shame, guilt, or criminalization. I understand the fear though of the ‘slippery slope” that some of my Democratic friends have regarding any hint of pro-choice regulation.

  • (Sorry: I meant Senator Clinton got a pass on echoing the “safe, legal and rare” language in some interviews a way that Obama would not. I think the reaction to her legislation was fine. And I would applaud Obama including those concrete steps described — but labelling it as “abortion reduction” would be a HUGE mistake.)

  • From the story:

    The abortion reduction plank that Wallis envisions would call for making adoption easier, supporting low-income women, and stepping up pregnancy prevention efforts.

    Well, the Democratic party is already on the record supporting two of the three; making adoption easier, sure, why not?

    But if these things are in the Democratic platform, why would we also need an ‘abortion is icky’ plank? How about instead, people like Jim Wallis who think abortion is icky go out and tell people what the Democratic party is doing to reduce abortions?

  • I can’t see a downside on this, only good.
    One of the best parts is that it would emphasize contraception, and possiby point out how nutzo some of the “coservative” are, and that Griswold was an important decison to be upheld by the SCOTUS.
    Pro-choice
    Pro-contraception
    Importance of the Supreme Court
    Insane right-wingers
    Extreme eye-rolling injuries by Fox “news” commentators (hopefully quite painful)

    Yep, it’s all good so far….

  • I’m as pro-choice as they come, but I liked Bill Clinton’s statement that abortion should be “Safe, legal and rare.” It’s hard to improve on that.

    Every abortion is a tragedy. The people who oppose abortion and make a big political issue out of it almost always oppose realistic sex eduction and family planning. It’s crazy, or crazy like a fox. More unwanted pregnancies means more abortions, which means a bigger political issue..

    This is an excellent way to frame the debate. Pro-choice folks will favor a platform of “abortion reduction, and it will leave the right-wingers frothing and fuming as their wedge issue slips away from them.

    Mr. Sayre, I couldn’t disagree with you more. Pro-choice men can be valuable allies to women in their fight for control over their own bodies.

  • Actually the ‘safe, legal and rare’ line was used by Mario Cuomo before Clinton picked up on it.

    The trouble with an ‘abortion-reduction’ plan is that, for it to be successful, it would need three components that would not ‘pass muster’ with most voters:

    a) teaching students about contraceptions and offering condoms and the pills to any student who requests them ‘no questions’ asked,

    b) teaching students about alternative sexual practices — including masturbation — that are incapable of causing pregnancy, and,

    c) teaching bisexuality as an acceptable — I’d argue preferable, but I’m biased — ‘lifestyle.’

    That would cut down the rate of abortions by about 95%, but don’t hold your breath.

  • Abortion is a medical procedure, period. It is not necessarily a “tragedy” — what a disgusting need to moralize. For many women, it is a relief; it is necessary; it is simply a moment in their lives that they may not have embraced but they did accept and move on from. It is not bad, it is not wrong, it is only subject to all this moralization because it is highly politicized. And it should not be.

    The difference between embracing the things that would lower abortions — because they’re the right things to do anyway — and actually saying “we want to reduce abortion” is buying into the right-wing framework that says that women should be judged on private choices. And that is bullshit, and that is offensive, and that is ultimately bad for the party. See what MaryL said about McCain’s votes and about his pro-life agenda — the most consistent and intelligent thing to do here is to reframe the question in terms of supporting women and supporting our families by supporting their private medical choices.

    The nice thing about Obama’s position on abortion is that he doesn’t say “every abortion is a tragedy,” he says that he understands that some might feel that way but ultimately it’s not up to him and that it should be legal and safe.

    Accessible, that’s the thing we need to work on — and accepting this “abortion = morally wrong” framework foisted on us is part of why Democrats have been so slack on making abortion accessible and preventing the slow creep of parental notification, waiting period, ultrasound laws, etc.

  • It’s time for Dems to stand up and acknowledge that the pro-choice argument is, in many ways, anti-choice.

    If a woman does not want an abortion, but feels compelled to have one because of the more difficult circumstances of bring a child to term and guaranteeing that child ample opportunities for life, then that woman does not have a choice—the pro-choice crowd makes the choice for her, as does society in general.

    Roe is supposed to be about the rights of the individual woman to choose one way or the other, and not about everyone else making that choice for her. Just as many on the Right feel it is their moral obligation to deny the right to an abortion, there are many on the Left who will insist of protecting their obligation—THEIR right to choose—by forcing THEIR choice on that individual.

    Abortion reduction can be accomplished, to some degree, simply through education and safe-sex applications. But it can be accomplished to an even greater degree through support systems such as pre-natal care, education in the area of child-raising, and a no-questions-asked national health program for every man, woman, and child who needs it. Granted, some may call this “socialism,” but the social engineering constructs of both the pro-abortion and anti-abortion cliques—the “my way or no way” brand of socialism spouted by not only the Far Left, but also by most Republicans, Libertarians, and Fundamentalists—is abhorrently and eerily similar to the “nationalist programs” of Hitler’s Reich, Stalin’s Russia, and Mao’s China.

  • I strongly agree with this. I am pro-choice but anti-abortion. We should be careful with human life and mourn when human life is lost. I think adoption should always be preferred over abortion, but I’m not so adamant that I would be comfortable putting it into law. The whole “walk a mile in her shoes” adage applies.

  • I want more, not less, abortions. If a woman has a fetus diagnosed with down’s syndrome she should have the choice of the state paying for the procedure. Similarly in other cases. Now a poor woman would be forced to carry her pregnacy to live birth for lack of a choice.

  • The way to do this is to take the hard-right strategy of wedge issues and just move the wedge. Instead of finding kinds of abortion like late-term that some may find objectionable to split the pro-choice vote, set the wedge on the other side, at contraception. Stress sex ed and above all contraception to make conception truly a choice and abortion much less prevalent. Don’t make it less safe or available or more costly, just stress avoidance. Not avoidance of sex as such but avoidance of conception. Then the people who object to sex and want to infantilize and constrain women by using sex for social control are on the thin side of the wedge. Abstinence education has been shown by every measure to be a crock. and a wasteful crock at that, with the money going to cronies and charlatans.

    If this is the strategy, I’m all for it. But not at the expense of making abortion less available. That is absolutely wrong.

  • Old white men making decisions about a woman’s body, sounds a little odd if you ask me. The party shouldn’t budge on this platform. Give them a foot and they will demand a yard.

  • Dear Mr. Sayre,

    I don’t exactly know what world you live in, but the world *I* live in requires men and women to work together to solve problems.

    The problem here is abortion, which is almost always a tragedy for the woman. If men can help in some way by reducing the number of needed abortions, why the heck not? This is simply a call for better birth control availability and sex ed, and once that fails, supporting the woman with her choice, whether that is abortion, adoption, or keeping the baby.

    I support the safe/legal/rare argument, and I think the suggested platform fits in perfectly with the pro-choice crowd. I agree it probably won’t change many people’s minds, but I certainly wouldn’t mind having this plank (which is a far better plan to reduce abortions than the Republicans have) back me up when I argue with the anti-abortion crowd.

    The “it’s my body” argument only works up to a point. The radicals who suggest a woman can abort a baby one day before it’s due, at her whim, are as equally ridiculous as the ‘stem cells are precious lifeforms’ people.

    -Franklin

  • “If a woman does not want an abortion, but feels compelled to have one because of the more difficult circumstances of bring a child to term and guaranteeing that child ample opportunities for life, then that woman does not have a choice—the pro-choice crowd makes the choice for her, as does society in general.”

    I don’t get this at all — I think it’s quite confused. The “pro-choice” crowd forces people to have abortions? By making them poor? By making childbirth dangerous for some women? WTF?

    Steve, go check out a planned parenthood clinic sometime. Then you wouldn’t sound so biased and ignorant. You just don’t know many pro-choice people, it’s obvious.

  • Why does the language even have to be couched in terms of abortion? Why can’t we have an honest discussion about reducing unwanted pregnancy and STDs in teens, for example?

    Why can’t we hammer on Republican failures such as abstinence-only education that have resulted in STDs in 25% of teenage American girls.

    The modern GOP may be full of idiots, but even they realize that you cannot have an abortion unless you are pregnant.

  • And I agree with Mimikatz. Contraception is a wedge issue. Force McCain to take a position on issues relating to it.

    Look, 80% of evangelicals and nearly that percentage of Catholics are in favor of free access to contraception. Make McCain choose between them and the 20% who are hard-right anti-sex fundamentalists.

  • OK, LoquaciousLaura makes the best argument against this being a platform plank per se. I still see the benefit of talking it up, even if it’s not an “official” goal.

    And ATX Dem – with Republicans it’s “Give them an inch and they think they are rulers.”

  • If we’re truly a pro-choice party, why wouldn’t we try to facilitate adoption, improve prenatal and postnatal medical care, provide effective education (i.e., not abstinence-only), etc.? We’re increasing individual choice, not limiting it by coercive means.

  • Democratic policies lead to abortion reduction.

    How about that for a plank? Actual science instead of a pledge?

  • No. No way. No how. This would be a concession to the anti-woman, anti-freedom crowd who are a tiny minority of this country.

    The vast majority of Americans, including a clear majority of **republicans**, are pro-choice. We lose no votes by staying with a clear and simple pro-choice platform. In fact, we could actually *gain* more votes, because, according to polls, there are a lot of McCain supporters who believe that he is not anti-choice. Educate them about how McCain really stands on the issue and a large percentage of them switch sides.

    There is nothing wrong with abortion, and I am sick and tired of my fellow liberals pussyfooting around in an attempt to appease that tiny minority of anti-woman extremists who have latched onto this one issue. No anti-abortion plank of **ANY KIND**, not even this kind of “abortion reduction” plank.

    The fact of the matter is, the pro-choice movement stands on the high ground. Both morally and by the ratio of Americans who stand with us. For a change, let’s actually be firm against the smearing and fear mongering of the right-wing extremists. Personally, I think that would be better than wilting like a week-old flower the way liberals have been doing for the past 30 years, don’t you?

  • Prup @12 Item b:

    “Son, what have you been doing in there with the door locked?”

    “Uh, homework”

  • Party plank or not, couldn’t the Republican opposition to the Prevention First Act be used against them rather effectively right now? The public “mood” seems to be leaning towards actually getting things done instead of rigid ideology. “Candidate A opposed programs to reduce the number of abortions in the country just to remain ideologically pure. Candidate B knows that reducing the number of abortions is a common good and we can’t afford to reject effective solutions on issues this important for the sake of Republican ideology. Candidate A. Real solutions for real problems.”

  • Making a plank out of something that is so evidently charged is an awkward and risky gamble with little reward. Just the comments on this thread indicate the level of emotion surrounding this topic.

    “actually saying “we want to reduce abortion” is buying into the right-wing framework that says that women should be judged on private choices” nails it pretty accurately, as does norbizness’ observation that the basic Democratic philosophy of access to healthcare, birth control and sex education does indicate the likelihood of fewer abortions.

    So a “plank” is used to build the party platform, and should indicate what the party stands for on an issue. If the issue is abortion, it will immediately polarize voters on pre-disposition, irrespective of what the plank actually states. But if the issue is healthcare, it depolarizes the discussion, allows Democrats to provide leadership that is so desperately needed, and pushes the right-wing noisemakers to come off as the cold, heartless thugs that they are.

    The abortion reduction plank that Wallis envisions would call for making adoption easier, supporting low-income women, and stepping up pregnancy prevention efforts.

    You can call for all of these things and more without ever having to say it’s about “abortion reduction.” Re-frame it, depolarize it, and the platform will be stronger for it.

  • Well, until reading Raoul today, I would have thought “who would have a problem with this? Who wants more abortions?”

    Pro-choice support is a mile wide and an inch deep. There’s a not a heck of a lot of middle ground to play with, but what middle ground there is, voters are on — waiting periods, parental notification, etc.

    You can be pro-choice and still recognize that somewhere around 1 in 5 pregnancies ending in abortion is a fairly sad statistic.

  • “we want to reduce abortion” is buying into the right-wing framework that says that women should be judged on private choices”

    No, it isn’t. Abortions decrease when women’s financial opportunities are better. There are people having abortions because they can’t afford children, or feel they can’t. The more obstacles to raising families we remove, the more we reduce abortions, and the more voters are pleased with both our policies and our results. That is what they call win-win-win on The Office.

    I’ve never heard a Democratic presidential candidate at any point in time NOT qualify his position with some variation on “safe, legal, and rare”. People will quibble with anything on the internetz.

  • Would Dems consider an ‘abortion reduction’ plank to the platform?

    Sure — it’s called “avoiding unwanted pregnancy,” and the paths thereto — including comptehensive sex education that doesn’t pretend telling kids just not to fuck actually works — has long been a major part of that. Duh.

  • scott m: wouldn’t that, in fact, be great? Sex, of all sorts (sex implies consent by the way, in my use of the term, rape is not sex but power) is a good thing that should be encouraged — especially since discouraging it just don’t work.

  • #34: That may be. But making abortion reduction an official plank in the party platform *is* buying into the right-wing spin, and we should avoid that at all costs.

    Pointing out that legal equality of the sexes and greater economic freedom leads to fewer abortions is one thing.

    But explicitly declaring abortion reduction to be the *goal* rather than the *consequence* gives in to the anti-choice falsehood that abortion is something shameful and wrong.

  • b) teaching students about alternative sexual practices — including masturbation — that are incapable of causing pregnancy, and,

    c) teaching bisexuality as an acceptable — I’d argue preferable, but I’m biased — ‘lifestyle.’

    Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t exactly see these two as sine qua nons of abortion reduction. I’m willing to bet nearly all teenagers are aware of masturbation, and I don’t think you can “teach” bisexuality any more than you can teach any other sexual orientation. Although it’s certainly a very novel abortion reduction approach…

  • I see a downside to this. Remember that many of these people think that sex education is evil (which will truly reduce pregnancy – which should be the ultimate goal anyway. No one is pro abortion, after all.) They think that stopping a fertilized egg is the same as abortion. They think that anything short of abstaining from sex (for all but them, of course) is THE ONLY thing to be done.

    I’m sorry, the whole abortion debate is a red herring to keep people from addressing the real issue which is keeping women in a supplicant position to the man who is supposed to take care of her.

    The vast majority of poor people in this country are single mothers…of all colors, religions and other variations.

    The religious right (the Dobson’s of the world) believe that woman are supposed to stay home – period. And to make a woman become completely dependant upon a man (not the state but a man) is done by forcing them to have children.

    And it works.

    I don’t think this is a fruitful discussion, myself. That said, Obama is pretty good at talking so I think I’d leave this decision to him.

  • jibeaux, the actual policies suggested, and the potential outcomes, are awesome. Creating a plank labelled “abortion reduction” is not so awesome. Just do the good work and wait for good results. I don’t want to see Obama lose any progressive support when he doesn’t need to do so.

  • Well, I consider myself about as left-wing as they come, and about as female as they come, and I don’t have any problem whatsoever with abortion reduction as a goal. Sure, it’s a choice that people should not be judged on, but it’s not like a choice between chocolate cake with vanilla frosting and vanilla cake with chocolate frosting. It’s a painful, wrenching choice. I don’t see the problem with making as a goal, putting fewer women in the position of having to make painful choices. Absolutely reduced abortions should be a goal, good grief, it’s absurd to say that’s buying into right-wing spin.

  • I don’t want to see Obama lose any progressive support when he doesn’t need to do so.

    He wouldn’t.
    Every Democratic presidential candidate since the dawn of time has said this.
    The SCOTUS and constitutional amendment are the only methods of reversing Roe.
    You can vote for the man who would change the composition of the Supreme Court for the worse, or the one who wouldn’t. Those are the choices.
    Oh, and Nader, if you’re in one of those four states.

  • What Shade Tail said @#37.

    C’mon, people — the Democrats already have an abortion reduction plank: they support rational sex education — Europe’s systems work, the Republican fetish for abstinence-only does not — equality of the sexes, pro-birth-control and greater economic freedom.

    Adopting “abortion is icky” language to placate the Amy Sullivan-esque concern troll crowd simply validates the Republican anti-choice. Given that Obama’s campaign is about playing on Republican turn, making this concession is insane and offers little value. Instead, the Democrats should expose the rabid anti-choicers’ agenda to ban birth control, which McCain — in decrying Griswold — tacitly embraced.

  • The Republicans will come back with how we want to distribute condoms in the schools. Better have a well-thought out “traditional” plan for prevention before moving too hastily on this one.

  • To all of those going absolutely apeshit over this, would it be more palatable if it were phrased as “reducing unwanted pregnancies” rather than “reducing number of abortions”? They’re essentially the same thing, but if the language reduces anxiety and apoplexy, maybe that’s a better approach to take.

    Me, I hate semantic arguments, and the concept of fervently supporting a policy when it’s phrased one way and stridently opposing the exact same policy when it’s phrased another smacks of the irrationality I’ve come to expect from the Bush crowd, but whatever. I’m willing to live with whatever phrasing if it helps get the (sensible) policy some attention.

  • It does not matter how much powder you put on it, that idea still looks like the camel’s nose. I vote to keep it out of the tent, even if we have to cut it off!

  • But perhaps some vague sentences on our being pro-family and pro-marriage could be good…. I mean, yippee, look at all the additional people Dems are helping to get married out here in California!

  • Jim Wallis has spent years trying to get gay and lesbian rights dropped from the liberal agenda because he finds us icky (officially we’re too divisive). Now the pro-choice crowd is apparently icky, too, so under the bus they go. The man is not a liberal, and he is not to be trusted. This is just a next step in his drive to redefine ‘liberal’ in narrower and narrower ways. Please stop giving him a platform!

  • Prup @36

    I was just making a joke. To answer your question– I absolutely agree that real sex education (not that abstinence-only nonsense) is indispensable if you want to reduce abortions and teen pregnancies and increase healthy attitudes about sexuality.

  • This is an excellent logical point to bring up, but not something to incorporate into the platform. It’s the perfect response to the the pro-lifers, especially in a debate. Even if you are of the opinion that it is just a medical procedure, well, most medical procedures aren’t pleasant, and presenting evidence that your policies make them less necessary is a good thing. However, as a plank in the platform, it’s probably a bad idea. A platform is an agenda for the government you hope to lead.

    Personally, I grow weary of the abortion debate on the whole, and certainly don’t look forward to it being a part of the legislative agenda to be debated in the public sphere, yet again.

  • “reducing unwanted pregnancies” rather than “reducing number of abortions”

    correlated, but not synonymous.

    The lefty blogosphere, and I love it deeply and spend much time in it, is an echo chamber. Step out of the lefty blogosphere and yell “FISA capitulation” and watch the echo reverberate through the world, unanswered except by puzzled looks from people paying for gas with rolls of nickels.

    This is one of those things.

    My guess would be if you took a poll, among registered Democrats, on whether they would support this plank in the Democratic platform, it would come in at 80% or more. Just a guess.

  • “Clinton got a pass on this from some feminists because, well, she’s a WOMAN.”MaryL
    No, he isn’t. Even if he was, it would clearly be a sexist attitude to give a woman a pass on such a statement and not a man. Either the concept is good or it isn’t on its own merits regardless of the sex of the person sharing it.

  • To all of those going absolutely apeshit over this, would it be more palatable if it were phrased as “reducing unwanted pregnancies” rather than “reducing number of abortions”? They’re essentially the same thing, but if the language reduces anxiety and apoplexy, maybe that’s a better approach to take.

    Well, yeah, but again, the Democratic platform already supports reducing unwanted pregnancies, which has the effect of reducing the number of abortions. Keep the goal reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies — which, again, supports many Democratic policies beyond the narrow issue of abortion.

    On the other hand, if they adopt “reducing abortions’ as your goal, the Democrats concede too much to the Republicans next time they try to bring up another abortion ban — “Hey, your own platform says you agree!” Stitch that!

  • Okay, last thing.
    It. Isn’t. That. Abortion. Is. Icky.

    It is that the choice is sad, and painful.

    There is nothing but good in saying fewer women should be forced into that decision, and that if they are, we should take our thumb off the scale that turns it into an *economic* choice. If you’re in a village in India with six kids already, ok, it’s an economic choice, sadly. In the wealthiest nation on earth, we should be removing our thumb already.

  • jibeaux calls “reducing unwanted pregnancies” rather than “reducing number of abortions” correlated, but not synonymous.

    I’m curious, jibeaux, from a policy point of view — reducing unwanted pregnancies inherently reduces the number of abortions. So if they aren’t synonymous, what other policies would you propose to reduce the number of abortion? Bans? Restrictions on public funding? Supporting judges who would overturn Roe — or even Griswold? Enlighten us.

  • I much very support the idea that abortion should be “safe, legal and rare.” As long as the issue is not control of women’s bodies and/or choices, and focused on prevention that includes education, contraception and so forth, I’m all for it.

    Lest a couple of the posters above have a problem with my statement, let you tell you something about myself. I’m a 60 year old white woman who had an abortion 22 years ago. I was a single parent, raising a 2-year old toddler, and struggling financially. The father, who I had been having a relationship with for over a year decided he couldn’t cope with the responsibility and left me high and dry. I had the abortion at less than 6 weeks along. I feel like I made the right decision. However, I fairly frequently think about the child that “might have been,” and wonder what she or he would have been like. It saddens me. So for anyone who says “abortion is not a tragedy,” I can only reply that it certainly is for some…perhaps many…of us who had one. And it is certainly a tragedy for that potential child.

    In my case, that pregnancy was the result of contraceptive failure, not from ignorance or failure to use contraception. But there are many, many young women who are not educated or do not have access to contraception, that find themselves in such a bind. If we can prevent women from having to MAKE the choice to have an abortion, I’m 100% behind it.

  • they adopt “reducing abortions’ as your goal, the Democrats concede too much to the Republicans next time they try to bring up another abortion ban — “Hey, your own platform says you agree!”

    One, I believe the plank would have more words than “less abortion.”

    Two, this wouldn’t really work on anyone older than four. I think people can see the difference between “reduced dependence on foreign oil” and “ban on foreign oil”. “Reduced spending on the military” and “ban on the military”, etc.

  • reducing unwanted pregnancies inherently reduces the number of abortions. So if they aren’t synonymous

    Didn’t argue with that. Reducing the speed limit inherently reduces the number of highway fatalities, too. But if you say you want to reduce highway fatalities, does that mean all you want to do is lower the speed limit? Correlated, not equivalent.

    As I said before, there are fewer abortions when women have more financial opportunities. A strong economy, equivalent pay for equivalent work, PAID MANDATORY MATERNITY LEAVE, and health care. I will be knocked on my butt with a feather if those things didn’t lower the number of abortions.

    In short, a more civilized, more Democratic, society.

    Impeach Cheney, thank you for sharing your story, I thought it was very moving.

  • A lot of you are coming from the point-of-view that the Democrats should never give up an inch on anything, even when it’s demostrably wrong. I take it that you guys think that there is “nothing wrong with abortion,” EVER, and abortion is nothing but “a medical procedure, period.” If you really think that abortion is A-OK, an emotionally empty act, even if the baby is due tomorrow, you are truly nuts. You’re nothing but the left-wing equivalent of George Bush.

  • On June 25th, 2008 at 12:47 pm, james k. sayre said:
    Men should shut up about abortion. It is simply none of their business. It is only between a woman and her doctor. Progressives should not be interfering in a woman’s private business.

    As a man, take issue with this statement. While I support a woman’s right to make decisions about her own body, I wonder about absolutist language like this. What about a healthy happy married couple? Should the partner have absolutely no say? …even if, in the case of a husband whose genes make up half the fetus’ genetic makeup? Should he REALLY have zero input into the decision? Just asking?

  • “reducing unwanted pregnancies” rather than “reducing number of abortions”

    correlated, but not synonymous.

    Well, if we’re being fancy, then it’s causative, not just correlated. Unwanted pregnancies cause abortions. Not in every case, of course, and they’re not the only cause, but reducing unwanted pregnancies *will* reduce abortions.

    And you’re correct about my excerpt, but the plank could absolutely be “reducing number of abortions by encouraging reproductive education and availability of contraception,” or something like that.

    Nobody is proposing making abortions less legal or more difficult to get. What people are proposing is reducing the number of abortions by reducing the circumstances that lead to abortions. And that makes perfect sense, no matter how you phrase it.

    The idea is not to trick pro-life voters or to subtly hint at a change in Democratic views on abortion. The idea is to call out to pro-life voters that Democratic policies with regards to sex education and contraception will lead to a reduction in abortions.

    And I just don’t see how that could be a bad thing (what, are the people who are not going to vote for Obama somehow going to not vote for him more? Or is the Democratic base going to rebel against sex education and contraception because taken together they will reduce the number of abortions?)

  • then it’s causative, not just correlated. Unwanted pregnancies cause abortions.

    My legal miseducation told me not to use causation because I expect the number of abortions in countries where abortion is illegal is dramatically lower than where it is legal. Hence the correlated. Also, I should certainly think that unwanted pregnancies where moms have a lot more options economically speaking would not necessarily lead to more abortions, that is to say I think you could easily have a situation where in Place A: 25% of pregnancies unwanted, 18% abortion rate, and Place B: 29% of pregnancies unwanted, 14% abortion rate. No?

    Since we’re talking about U.S. law, probably a moot point, but that legal miseducation is a hard burden to overcome.

    I’ll give it more thought.

    On another topic, I am gratefully unfamiliar with child support & custody law. It is entirely possible that there could be improvements in this system to assist with the problem of economic abandonment of women that would also lead to lower abortion rates. Just a possibility.

  • One, I believe the plank would have more words than “less abortion.”

    So what? If the Democrats declare reducing abortion as the goal, a proposed Republican ban would achieve said goal.

    this wouldn’t really work on anyone older than four. I think people can see the difference

    I invite you to consider the utterly bogus issue of so-called “partial birth abortions,” and the complicity with which the so-called “liberal media” enabled this bogus Republican talking point up to and including adoption of actual bans on this medical procedure without consideration for a woman’s health. Sorry, your confidence is less than convincing.

    Reducing the speed limit inherently reduces the number of highway fatalities, too. But if you say you want to reduce highway fatalities, does that mean all you want to do is lower the speed limit? Correlated, not equivalent.

    So, again, jibeaux, apart from measures that reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which Democrats already support, what further policies do you propose to reduce the number of abortions?

    Thanks in advance.

  • So, again, jibeaux, apart from measures that reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which Democrats already support, what further policies do you propose to reduce the number of abortions?

    Uh, did you want me to just cut and paste from my previous response to you? Okay, then.

    As I said before, there are fewer abortions when women have more financial opportunities. A strong economy, equivalent pay for equivalent work, PAID MANDATORY MATERNITY LEAVE, and health care. I will be knocked on my butt with a feather if those things didn’t lower the number of abortions.

    In short, a more civilized, more Democratic, society.

    On another topic, I am gratefully unfamiliar with child support & custody law. It is entirely possible that there could be improvements in this system to assist with the problem of economic abandonment of women that would also lead to lower abortion rates. Just a possibility.

  • The idea is not to trick pro-life voters or to subtly hint at a change in Democratic views on abortion. The idea is to call out to pro-life voters that Democratic policies with regards to sex education and contraception will lead to a reduction in abortions.

    …and, I might add, to point out that Republican policies demonstrably do not lead to reductions in abortion, but quite the opposite.

  • The point of saying there would be more words is that obviously the plank would clarify that it did not represent a change, compromise, or otherwise affect in any way the Democratic pro-choice platform. It would be a simple thing to word it in such a way that made it clear it did not advocate a ban. Just think of all the lawyers we are blessed with, I mean, we have, in this country.

    The nature and procedure of a late-term abortion and accompanying exceptions for life and health, or both, or for life, or for neither, is a somewhat complicated issue to sum up in a few words.

    “Less” and “ban” is a fairly straightforward distinction.

  • did you want me to just cut and paste from my previous response to you? Okay, then.

    Sorry, I didn’t see that.

    But again — these are all polices the Democrats already support. Reducing abortion as an independent goal has nothing to do with them — rather, reducing abortions is the effect of rational, humane Democratic policies, whereas Republican policies, not so much.

    There’s no need to adopt reduction in abortion as a goal in and of itself. the Democrats already support policies that lead to a reduction in abortion. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out the effect, but no reason to include it as a separate goal. Rather, once again, Democrats should point out that those who want reduced abortions should support the existing Democratic platform.

    The Republicans may say they oppose abortion, but their policies don’t have that effect — and that’s something i think a four-year-old can see through.

  • I like listening to Jim Wallis, but I hope Obama does not take his advice on this one. It is the proverbial camel’s nose – a concession that a woman who chooses abortion is not up-to-snuff morally. I like the idea of affirming support for women’s right to choice and good reproductive health. “Choice” really means choices. All females should have access to safe, effective, affordable contraception – including a morning after pill. All females should be educated about making choices about when and how they become sexually active including all the possible consequences. All females should have options should they be confronted with an unwanted preganancy. This includes adoption, and it includes abortion.

    Would I prefer that abortion would never be necessary? Yes. Would I want that option open to me if I needed it? Yes. An “abortion reduction” plank makes it look like we do not really believe that terminating a pregnancy (before the fetus is truly viable – that is my personal line in the sand) is a woman’s right. It must be.

    Finally, I believe males also should have access to contraception and education about choices about becoming sexually active. Didn’t want to seem sexist. But, when all is said and done, males do not bear a personal risk of pregnancy. The issue is more salient for females.

  • The point of saying there would be more words is that obviously the plank would clarify that it did not represent a change, compromise, or otherwise affect in any way the Democratic pro-choice platform. It would be a simple thing to word it in such a way that made it clear it did not advocate a ban.

    It’d be even simpler not to include language about reducing abortion, as opposed to unwanted pregnancies, as a goal. Then there’d be no need for words that clarify.

    Again: The existing Democratic platform goals would have the effect of reducing abortions. There’s no need to adopt any additonal language about goals — which, again, at least superficially is a concession to the Republican stance — when simply pointing out the effects for good (Democrats) and ill (Republicans) regarding abortion (and let’s not forget contraception! Exposing the anti-contraception agenda of the anti-choice crowd is a must) will do fine.

  • these are all polices the Democrats already support.

    If they’ve ever had paid mandatory maternity leave in the platform before, I’ve missed it.

    I realize they’re mostly Democratic values.

    I don’t see any downside to linking in people’s mind Democratic stances with a result that has nearly universal appeal, i.e., well, huh, the Democrats said they were going to lower the abortion rate and they did! What’s the advantage to making them to connect the dots on their own? There’s next to no political cost here, and a lot of potential gain if there’s follow through and it works.

  • The existing Democratic platform goals would have the effect of reducing abortions.

    I think they would, too. Which is why I think we should take credit for it in advance instead of it seeming like a completely unrelated statistic, unintended and possibly undesired by Democrats.

  • The Republican party platform in Texas says it is pro-life and specifically states that life begins at FERTILIZATION (sorry about the caps but my italics don’t work). That is where they are headed with this. Ms Joanne is correct, in that the RW thinks the pill is an abortifacient. So just handing out birth control won’t cut it with them. They are the lunatic fringe but have powerful jaws.

    I think the Democratic party should have a Pro-Family plank (not an anti anything plank because anti is negative). That plank shouldn’t emphasize the abortion issue specifically, but should offer realistic sex ed, access to birth control, medical “support” including natal care, state support during pregnancy for those willing to consider adoption, and yes, abstinence should be included in the teaching. The aim should be No Unwanted Pregnancies. It doesn’t have to be 100% effective. After all the RW has argued that abstinence is effective even though it isn’t 100% effective.

  • It is completely reasonable to allow some restrictions to the kinds of abortions that are most objectionable to the most amount of people. A good example is late term or so called partial birth abortions. This is something that people that are otherwise on the fence on abortion really are offended by. My personal feeling is that their should be no restrictions and maybe even give them free, but that is not how you build a winning coalition. The way to get the most people on board is to agree to restrict the most objectionable situations, maybe a way around it with doctors permission can be figured out. There is no slippery slope arguement that has merit. Many democrats are against abortion and this could help give them political cover. To demand no restrictions in any case is simply a reicpe for disaster and an extremist position. Compromise is how you get things done, and getting democrats elected is all that really matters at the moment.

  • these are all polices the Democrats already support

    If they’ve ever had paid mandatory maternity leave in the platform before, I’ve missed it.

    I realize they’re mostly Democratic values.

    Well, yeah…I didn’t say, you notice, that there’s a plank, but we both agree the Democrats — as opposed to Republicans — support this kind of policy.

    That said, I would support such a plank of course.

    I don’t see any downside to linking in people’s mind Democratic stances with a result that has nearly universal appeal

    But the result goes beyond merely reducing abortions — so making abortion reduction the purported goal of those policies is, as someone observed ,a ploy a four year old would see through.

    Not to mention, once again, conceding unneccesarily to the Republican frame.

    i.e., well, huh, the Democrats said they were going to lower the abortion rate and they did! What’s the advantage to making them to connect the dots on their own? There’s next to no political cost here, and a lot of potential gain if there’s follow through and it works.

    There’s nothing wrong at all with mentioning that reducing abortion is one beneficial effect among others. Take comprehensive sex eduication — it reduces STDs, reduces abortions and some studies indicate even delays the intitiation of sexual activity. Those are all worthy goals, nut the policy plank is comprehensive sex education, not reducing abortion in and of itself.

    There is no reason at all to cite reducing abortions, as opposed to reducing unwanted pregnancies, as the platform goal.

  • Jibeaux and others regarding why women have abortions:

    Women have abortions for many reasons, and financial stability is only one of them. If my 24-year-old friend were flush with money, she would still have considered an abortion as she recently did, because she is too young, her relationship is not stable, she’s not ready to have a child, and she’s in school right now bettering herself. Good reasons, IMHO, but … it’s REALLY NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

    She had a personal choice to make, and she made it, based on what was right for her.

    You have to ask yourself why you want to determine others’ motivations for private medical choices. I don’t really care why you elected for elective surgery, etc. I don’t ask why you got that vasectomy reversed (“you” being a hypothetical “you” obviously). It seems to me that we want to know “why abortion” because we want to prevent it.

    And that comes back to the idea that abortion is inherently morally abhorrent. I think that is simply crazy, frankly. It’s a private medical procedure and it’s never going to go away, legal or not. It’s needed. I’m all for wider availability of contraception and true sex ed. But I also recognize that abortion is not going away, whether or not it decreases, and there is nothing wrong with that.

  • From #2: “Progressives should not be interfering in a woman’s private business.”

    Um, Progessives, both men and women, work together. If a man is unwilling to work with a woman on feminist issues, he is not a progressive.

  • Well sure, it’s the 2006 DemCong way. Adjust our platform to please the anti-choice Republicans. Rev Williams wants to find one more way to kiss intransigent Republican ass. Do things because they’re right, not to get “millions” of votes from anti-choice people.

  • Women have abortions for many reasons, and financial stability is only one of them.

    No argument here.

    If you were to read my comments again, I think you’d see that what I am arguing is that there is nothing but good in removing the barriers that lead women to make this decision for bad, AVOIDABLE reasons. If women are having abortions because spending two months out of work is a literal impossibility, for example, that’s to our national disgrace and we should change that.

    If they are doing it because they are too young, etc., well, these things cannot be changed except to try to lessen the number of unintended pregnancies.

    But as long as economics forces people’s hand, even if it’s just some and not all people, then we have the opportunity to reduce abortions with policies we already support, and potentially reach out to new voters for the Democratic party, without affecting people like your friend.

    As I said before,

    Win.
    Win.
    Win.

  • Which is why I think we should take credit for it in advance instead of it seeming like a completely unrelated statistic, unintended and possibly undesired by Democrats.

    I don’t think we’re very far apart. I think it’s absolutely fine to cite reducing abortions as an effect of favored Democratic policies — and again, we should also point out how counterproductive, as usual, Republican policies are — but there’s no need to cite reducing abotions as a goal in and of itself. “Reducing unwanted pregnancies” — which, unlike reducing abortion, no Republican policy can be spun to support — is just fine, thanks.

    The frame should be: If you want to reduce abortions, you should support the Democratic policies of economic fairness, comprehensive sex education, and health care.

  • Jibeaux:

    No, not win. Because trying to “reduce abortions” reinforces the framework that abortion is morally abhorrent. And thus, those who opt for them are making a “bad” choice. Read TuiMel’s post above.

  • Aside from the allegation that this would cost Obama with progressives, a highly dubious claim in my mind, I don’t think anyone yet has pointed out either what the political cost of doing this would be, or why it would outweigh any political advantage. I mean, Steve wrote:

    will only articulate Dems’ commitment to reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies through progressive means, then this shouldn’t be too controversial.

    Yet there is controversy, here at least, based on supposedly caving to right-wing framing and caving to pro-life (it doesn’t change the abortion platform). Why would the effect, why would the outcome, why would the results, be worse? This is not argued.

  • What Gregory said, especially this:

    But the result goes beyond merely reducing abortions — so making abortion reduction the purported goal of those policies is, as someone observed ,a ploy a four year old would see through.

    Not to mention, once again, conceding unneccesarily to the Republican frame.

    The polices that would be part of this plank are great policies. But the framing on this sucks. The soundbite on this sucks. We can still get the good results we want from this — better economic and medical support for women and families — without losing a single vote. But having Obama make a risky shift in his rhetoric that could compromise progressive support is a bad idea.

    This could be a very close race. Yeah, the polls right now suggest a blowout, but I’m not counting on that at all. If the platform includes a plank framed as helping women and families, and if a long list of benefits included an overall reduction in women choosing abortion for economic reasons, or fewer unwanted pregnancies, this could solidify progressive support and bring in some centrists. But once you make “abortion reduction” the label — and no matter how much explanation you attach, if that is the central goal of the plank, that will become the soundbite and the talking point — you piss off some chunk of suspicious progressives.

    This is just not necessary. He shouldn’t do it.

  • Patrick wrote: A good example is late term or so called partial birth abortions. This is something that people that are otherwise on the fence on abortion really are offended by.

    There’s no such thing as “partial birth abortion.” That’s a term invented by the anti-choice crowd precisely to offend low-information voters and, of course, adopted by the so-called “liberal media.” And insofar as the intact dialation and extraction procedure is used, it’s distinct from “late term abortion.”

    Offensive as it may be to some, there are times when people face the difficult decision to abort a pregnancy to save the life or health of the mother. So-called “partial birth abortion” should remind us that the anti-choice crowd does not argue in good faith, so there’s even less reason to make concessions in framing. The so-called ‘extreme positions’ Patrick cites are propaganda fantasies of the anti-choice crowd.

    With straw men like like “their should be no restrictions and maybe even give them free, but that is not how you build a winning coalition,” and “To demand no restrictions in any case is simply a reicpe for disaster and an extremist position,” not to mention “Many democrats are against abortion (cite, please?), “Patrick” smells like a concern troll.

    Always hopeful wrote: So just handing out birth control won’t cut it with them.

    Again, the agenda of the extreme anti-choicers is banning contraception, not just abortion. And McCain, by saying Griswold should be overturned, supported their extreme position. I agree with A.H’s second paragraph.

  • No, not win. Because trying to “reduce abortions” reinforces the framework that abortion is morally abhorrent. And thus, those who opt for them are making a “bad” choice. Read TuiMel’s post above.

    I did read it, I read all of them. I disagree. I don’t have much patience with arguments along the lines of, well, there’s no downside to fewer abortions, fewer unwanted pregnancies, and better opportunities for women, but we can’t *say* that, for heaven’s sakes, because it “reinforces a framework.” People are highly conflicted about abortion, including supporters, and that is a fact. It’s a sad and wrenching decision to have to make. *That* is the “framework”.

    If there’s no change in policy, but we can take credit for effects of that policy that 99% of the country would agree are good, we should do it. While 9 people are off fretting about the “framework”, the Democratic party can bring in new voters without changing their policies.

  • jibeaux @ 3:33 pm:
    Aside from the allegation that this would cost Obama with progressives, a highly dubious claim in my mind, I don’t think anyone yet has pointed out either what the political cost of doing this would be, or why it would outweigh any political advantage.

    Are you paying attention? of course the political cost of doing so has been pointed out to you — you acknowledge it yourself: ceding to the Republicans the framing that abortion is bad.

    if the Democrats agree that abortions should be reduced as an independent goal, then you not only give the GOP cover for their more extreme positions, but you also undermine the justifications for the very policies you claim to support — the opposition won’t agree to them, because they don’t go far enough to stop abortion.

    Yes, Steve equated reducing abortion and reducing unwanted pregnancies; I’ve been disagreeing with this position throughought the thread.

    Of course I, and others, are arguing against caving, once again, to GOP framing of the issue. Tell me, what political advantage outweighing the cost did the Democrats receive from their ceding the GOP positions in 2002 and 2004?

  • Also, some of you guys are talking like you’ve never heard a Democrat discuss the moral dimensions of abortion before and this would be some sort of change, some drastic alteration. When was the last time you heard a Democratic politician come out and say, “I think anyone who wants an abortion should go out and get one, and not feel bad or guilty about it, because it isn’t a moral decision, it’s just a fact of life, and no one should judge them for it?”

    No one running for office who seeks to get elected says this. “Safe, legal, and rare” has been the party line for a looooong time. Lowering abortion rates is frequently mentioned as a benefit to Democratic policies, by Democratic politicians. So if it’s a sell-out, it’s a sell-out whose ship has sailed.

  • “You don’t have to call for criminalizing anyone,” he said. “You don’t have to take a different stance about a woman’s right to choose. But you begin with the need for reducing abortion dramatically.”

    Ummm… personally, two words in this last sentence stand out to me: “you begin”. That says to me that the “criminalizing” and “different stance” will most certainly come later. Give them an inch and they will most certainly take a mile. I hope Obama ignores this advice – it will drive more people away than it will attract.

    I’m all for teaching people how to prevent pregnancies, and if you have to call it “limiting abortion” to get it past the pro-lifers who view contraceptives as sinful, fine. But if this will ultimately limit a woman’s access to abortion and Dems embrace it, there will be no major party representing pro-choice interests. That, I believe, would be a mistake, and the damage to the party would take years to undo once that mistake was realized.

    I do not believe the correct way for the Democratic Party to win this election is to become the Republican Party Lite. We have different beliefs for a reason.

  • ceding to the Republicans the framing that abortion is bad.

    Even if this were true, this isn’t a political cost. Your argument is that the Republicans have sort of a moral victory there because they get to “frame” the morality. Losing votes is a political cost. Losing states is a political cost. Losing endorsements is a political costs. Lower turnout is a political cost.

    Tell me, what political advantage outweighing the cost did the Democrats receive from their ceding the GOP positions in 2002 and 2004? You would have to be more specific about what you’re talking about here for me to be able to respond.

  • People are highly conflicted about abortion, including supporters, and that is a fact.

    Is it?

    Whereas the anti-choice crowd are fanatical about their cause.

    You’re on the “abortion is icky” issue again, and claiming that even abortion rights supporters agree with you.

    It’s a sad and wrenching decision to have to make. *That* is the “framework”.

    Sure it is, but it isn’t one that government should make an independent goal of ensuring people don’t have to face. Especially if one way of reaching that goal is to remove their ability to make the choice at all.

    Also sad and wrenching, just as one example, is the decision to remove a loved one with no hope of recovery from life support. You’ll notice where the pro- and anti- choice forces aligned on that issue, as exemplified by the Terri Schaivo tragedy, and also notice that the anti-choice leaders revealed as a pack of ignorant fanatics who were prepared to have hte government intervene, at the highest levels, on no factual or legal merit at all, in a private family decision.

    It’s a sad and wrenching decision to make, but it’s also a private one and no business of the state’s. The state should provide a supportive framework — good medical care, etc — to reduce the circumstances in which one has to make that decision, but the ultimate personal choice should not be a matter of the government’s agenda.

  • Because trying to “reduce abortions” reinforces the framework that abortion is morally abhorrent.

    Hogwash. That’s an utter straw man.

    Trying to “reduce abortions” acknowledges that abortions are undesirable. Is there a single person on earth, liberal or conservative, secular or religious, who things that it’s better to have more abortions than less?

    Abortions are expensive. They can be emotionally distressing. There is always some risk with any medical procedure. They consume medical resources which could be better used elsewhere. They lead to social divide, both in families and larger society. How can it possibly be a bad thing to emphasize that one of the benefits of the party’s existing policies is a reduction in abortions?

    Reducing abortions by reducing unwanted pregnancies says nothing at all about the “moral abhorrence” of abortion. And opposing a position because you’re afraid that your opponents might be able to twist it to the point where they can read some kind of moral vindication into it is irrational and counterproductive.

  • If anyone can find something reasonable that isn’t already in the Venn diagram overlap of Reduces Abortion and Democratic Policy, then I’d consider it, but most of the realistic ideas, like contraceptive education and access to health care are already part of the Democratic platform.

    What are we missing that requires a new ‘plank?’

  • Franky @ 21: The problem here is abortion, which is almost always a tragedy for the woman.

    O how nice of you to speak for all women. Sayre said it. Tragedy or relief, it’s simply none of your business. Just as it’s none of my business if you take viagra or not, or if you wipe from back to front. Cher says it another way: “They are my tits and if I wanna have them put on my back that is my own damn business.”

    Abortions are certainly not celebratory events. But neither are pelvic exams.

    What is tragic is how we get caught up in the RW rhetoric and ignorance and actually begin to believe it. “Partial-birth abortion” is fictional term contrived to unite hysterics. I’d love to see statistics on how many of these have actually happened, but I’m quite certain it’s just more bloated bullshit to hack away at Roe.

    And, it’s been a really long time gone since I heard of any back-alley botches.

  • Steve, you are nuts.
    LoquaciousLaura@19

    Care to explain?

    Steve, go check out a planned parenthood clinic sometime.
    David@22

    Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt—and comment upon comment from PP workers who say they’d love to see support funding for expectant mothers. REAL support funding.

    The simple fact of the matter is that abortion is presented as the cheap and easy way out—not for the individual woman, but for society as a whole. “Society” does not want the bother of paying for these children; it doesn’t want the hassle of funding massive child-rearing centers (it used to call them “orphanages”), and it doesn’t want to deal with the bad feelings of “America having surplus/excess children.” That’s only supposed to happen in undeveloped countries.

    If anyone wants to argue that the individual woman should “have the choice,” then the choice should include a full support system if she wants to keep the child, with an ancillary support system that would allow her to bring that child into this world for adoption, if she so chooses. That choice must, likewise, include the unquestioned right of the individual to terminate the pregnancy in an environment that is professionally trained, properly equipped, adequately protected from the fringe lunatics, and with the offer of comprehensive post-procedure support—both physical and psychological.

    That is the only “choice” that can fully represent the Right to unfettered Speech and Expression, as guaranteed under the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Anything less—whether proffered by the Pro-Choicers or the Pro-Lifers—is a choice with restrictions; is a choice with conditions; is a choice that isn’t really a free choice at all for the individual.

    Because that “choice” is contaminated by the preferences and (un)conscious demands of Society itself.

  • Want to know what Jim Wallis stands for? Here is a quotation from a recent interview he gave to the reputable Dutch newspaper NRC-Handelsblad:

    Q:Imagine that the Republicans paint you during the campaign as yet another friend of Obama who states that he wishes to unite the country but is, in reality an extreme leftist?
    A:Left and right are not religious categories. And of course Obama is not a left extremist. What is attractive about him is his pragmatism; he judges an idea by its quality and not by its source. I myself work with every part of society. When it concerns the protection of the family I am a conservative. When it concerns social justice I am not progressive-I am radical. Also on the issues of war and peace.
    I am not a leftist but an independent. However, I do not make compromises for the forty million poor of this country. I hope that we will eventually succeed in this country to wed the traditions of Billy Graham and Martin Luther King. That we will organize the Crusades which Billy Graham held to bring people to Jesus to confront the government with the need for more social justice, as King did.”

    Wallis has also called Obama “the most Christian President since Carter.”

  • Also, some of you guys are talking like you’ve never heard a Democrat discuss the moral dimensions of abortion before

    I, for one, am all too familiar with Amy Sullivan’s relentless, tedious concern trolling on the subject.

    But why should the government involve itself in a person’s private moral choices? if you’re arguing it should, then you concede that the government has the right to ban abortion entirely.

    When was the last time you heard a Democratic politician come out and say, “I think anyone who wants an abortion should go out and get one, and not feel bad or guilty about it, because it isn’t a moral decision, it’s just a fact of life, and no one should judge them for it?”

    Are you sure you aren’t making the “abortion is icky” argument?

    Patrick’s straw men aside, no one does.

    No one running for office who seeks to get elected says this. “Safe, legal, and rare” has been the party line for a looooong time. Lowering abortion rates is frequently mentioned as a benefit to Democratic policies, by Democratic politicians.

    Precisely; and since Democrats don’t make the ridiculous straw man argument you proposed, and do adopt the sensible framing you cited, there’s no reason to change this broad formulation and cede the framing to the Republicans.

    Even if this were true, this isn’t a political cost.

    Oh, come on now, you’re either being naive or disingenuous.

    Your argument is that the Republicans have sort of a moral victory there because they get to “frame” the morality.

    Not a moral victory, a political one, from having the Democrats concede that the Republican position is the correct one.

    Losing votes is a political cost. Losing states is a political cost. Losing endorsements is a political costs. Lower turnout is a political cost.

    Why, yes, exactly.

    Now, you certainly haven’t presented any convincing evidence that there are lost votes, states, endorsements or turnout as a result of the Democrats’ pro-choice position that the Democrats could in fact win by any means other than abandoning said position. After all, the anti-choice crowd would just vote Republican rather than Republican-lite.

    But a good percentage of Democratic voters value choice and freedom — as evidence, I cite the emphasis Democrats — and Republicans! — place on Democratic candidates’ pro-choice stance. Republican-lite concession would indeed cost the Democrats votes and turnout, possibly endorsements and even states, by abandoning choice and embracing an anti-choice framing. Why on Earth should they do that?

    L’s D. wrote: I do not believe the correct way for the Democratic Party to win this election is to become the Republican Party Lite.

    Word. It sure the hell didn’t work in 2002 and 2004.

  • Trying to “reduce abortions” acknowledges that abortions are undesirable. Is there a single person on earth, liberal or conservative, secular or religious, who things that it’s better to have more abortions than less?

    Talk about straw men. Pro-choicers belive that it’s better to have the freedom to decide for oneself whether, in one’s own circumstance, having an abortion is more desirable than not.

    It isn’t about “more versus less.” It’s about having the choice, or not. Conceding that an abotion is an inehrently abhorrent act points inevitably in the direction of banning them entirely. What else should one do with an abhorrent act?

    How can it possibly be a bad thing to emphasize that one of the benefits of the party’s existing policies is a reduction in abortions?

    Straw man again. No one is arguing that they shouldn’t, if such a claim matters to someone. But to make reducing abortions an end in itself is not what the Democratic Party stands for or ought to stand for.

    The Democratic party should not be in the business of deciding for its constituency that the controversial issue of abortion is, in fact, abhorrent. It should acknowledge that people disagree and acknowledge that they have the inherent freedom to decide for themselves.

  • …and again, “emphasiz[ing] that one of the benefits of the party’s existing policies is a reduction in abortions” does not require any change to the existing platform.

  • Bottom line: No conceding even a millimeter to anti-choice extremists. No using their ideas, of course, but no using their framing either. If we let them define the debate, then we’ve already lost.

    I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. We need to stand firm against their smearing and fear-mongering. We need to stop letting them set the rules of our politics. And we definitely need to keep our party platform free of their ideas and rhetoric.

    If we just keep wilting before them, if we just keep letting them turn us into republican-light, then we will never win and nothing will ever change. So, no “abortion reduction” plank. Period.

  • Bottom line: No conceding even a millimeter to anti-choice extremists. No using their ideas, of course, but no using their framing either. If we let them define the debate, then we’ve already lost.

    Word. It’s high time the Democrats learned that lesson (*cough*FISA*cough*).

    And again, there’s no reason to change the framing. Reductions in abortions are already in there as an effect of good governmance policies — but not, ever, as an end in itself.

  • Okay, Gregory, we’re going to have to let this rest. To me this is just a codification of what Democratic politicians have been saying for many years, and allows us to take political advantage of the benefits of our policies by making it clear that lowered abortions aren’t unintended consequences. It doesn’t change either the policy or the rhetoric. I think you are the one fighting with a straw man when you continually point out how it’s a woman’s choice and that people should have freedom to make these decisions — no one on this board is making those arguments. No one.

    I completely fail to see how this would cost anyone votes. It took you to post #95 to remember to argue that it would. The idea being because it’s “Republican-lite”. I think fewer abortions would be a nearly universal goal, I think it would have about as much popular support as kittens and pie. It isn’t Republican-lite if it doesn’t change a single policy stance, to my mind.

    But I do see how it could gain votes. Many people are pro-life with left-leaning tendencies, they are often religious people, sometimes Catholic. They are resigned, accepting even, of the Democratic party’s pro-choice platform, despite their disagreement with it. They may accept that they are in disagreement about this issue, but they are in agreement with more, so they vote Democratic. On the other side you have basically single-issue voters, for whom abortion is a deal-breaker, even if they otherwise tend Democratic. Then you have people torn about it. These would be the target audience. I read an editorial along these lines once in a Catholic magazine, it also happens to be Jimmy Carter’s position the last time I checked. There is basically acceptance, or resignation, that abortion will remain legal and Roe will remain law, so the interest turns to: who will commit to at least reducing abortion, as the next best alternative?

    This is, to me, the essence of what is so appealing about an Obama candidacy: reaching out to voters we have not previously had, without compromising our stance on the issues. There are Republicans voting for Obama despite possibly agreeing with him on almost nothing. Think how amazing that is, and for whom how few Democrats that would be true. They are the flip side of Reagan Democrats.

    I don’t want to win this election with 270 electoral votes and a 50.05% margin. I want a landslide. I want courageous Democrats who will stand up for values we believe in and the numbers to not have to compromise. I want lots and lots of new Democratic voters. I don’t want them because we’ ve taken some middle path and cut all the babies right in half and perfected the Clintons’ Third Way. I want them to vote for us even if they disagree with us because we’re going to deliver results that people can support. Fewer abortions is a result nearly everyone, give or take a half dozen folks on this blog, can support.

  • MsJoanne, Gregory, Shade Tail, thanks for your comments, theyre all great. and to those who insist that there is some kind of lasting psychological damage to choosing abortion…please stop! That is such an insulting premise and I have read it many times in this thread. Abortion is a private decision and a woman has the last word on it, always…anything that smacks of it being a bad thing (abhorrent, reduction, etc) is unacceptable…education and access to protect someone’s health should be the goal.

  • To me, the “extremist” position is the one that says we can’t take a political position that enjoy nearly universal support, that is the essence of common sense, and that may well bring in new Democratic voters, because we’re drawing a line in the sand over “framing.” There is a world of difference between this issue and FISA, a substantive piece of legislation with dire Constitutional ramifications, over which the Democrats folded like a house of cards.

    Not an issue, mind you, not the legality of abortion, not the access, not the funding, nothing that you could put your finger on and poke and prod at, nothing that would change anything for anybody, but the “framing”. This isn’t the Lewis & Clark Faculty Handbook drafting session, guys, it’s our country and we need it back.

  • to those who insist that there is some kind of lasting psychological damage to choosing abortion…please stop!

    Since I didn’t remember this argument being made, I ran a search, which came up with this alone, which seems fairly sensible:

    That choice must, likewise, include the unquestioned right of the individual to terminate the pregnancy in an environment that is professionally trained, properly equipped, adequately protected from the fringe lunatics, and with the offer of comprehensive post-procedure support—both physical and psychological.

    This is a like a straw army up in here. We should have a Straw War.

  • Sweet raving FSM. Gay marriage in California is already a major moral wedge issue this year. Do we as a party have to shoot ourselves in both feet by bringing up abortion, too? Common sense dictates that the Democratic policies of education, support for women’s rights, support for low-income women, and better access to healthcare would lead to a reduction in the number of abortions performed.

    Leave it alone, Sen. Obama. Just leave it the fuck alone. Focus on the environment and poverty as your religious unifying issues.

    Hearkening back to the theology discussion a few posts back (and only because Jim Wallis brought this up), the Bible doesn’t say ONE DAMN WORD about abortion as a moral crime. Exodus 21:22-24 is the only passage in either testament discussing the penalty for causing a woman to lose a fetus. It’s treated as a property crime, the judgment is meted according to the injury to the woman, not the fetus, and the woman’s husband receives the money. This whole “I knew you in the womb” garbage to make abortion a heinous crime is another tool Republican christofascists use to keep women as second-class citizens, and we here all know it.

    Abortion is not a moral tragedy. It’s a medical procedure. Not every woman who has an abortion feels depressed, shameful, and guilty afterwards. For every clinic-picketing, placard-waving, hysterical, shrieking Jesus freak regretting her abortion, there are two more women across the street, silent and afraid to speak up.

    http://www.imnotsorry.net

  • Gregory, you managed to take my quote, where I reject the notion that wanting to reduce abortions has any moral implications whatsover, and attack me as if I had said that abortions are “morally abhorrent,” and further, that I want to criminalize them (“what else…”).

    I think you should get away from the computer for a bit until you calm down. It’s one thing to disagree with people; it’s another thing to be so worked up that you no longer even process what they are saying and go at them for positions diametrically opposed to what they actually said. It’s a beautiful day here in Seattle — hopefully it is where you are, too. Go out, get some fresh air!

    When you do calm down, let me restate my position clearly: I believe that abortions are a fundamental right that must not be criminalized. I believe that individual women can and should make their own moral choices. I believe that the state has no place in individual moral choices. I believe that abortion, in the larger social context, produces undesirable economic, health, and social results. I believe that abortion is often caused by an unwanted pregnancy. I believe that, to the extent that rational sex ed and contraception policies can reduce unwanted pregnancies, they will also reduce abortions.

    I believe that one can want to reduce the overall number of abortions for reasons having nothing to do with the moment at which a fetus becomes a person or with any religious text or doctrine. I believe that one can want to reduce the overall number of abortions without wanting to impinge on any woman’s right to make her own moral choices.

    If you can still cast me as some kind of pro-life agitator, you need to get back outside again.

  • The trolls are out in force & righties are nervous about this. Look at all the posts above pretending to be outraged, those are righty trolls being paid .10 cents a post to get their comments posted.
    This is a complete no brainer. Everyone, & I mean total pro-choicers are behind this line of reasoning. NOBODY likes abortion. All pro-choicers I know advocate education as key to prevention & prevention is the goal. Obama should embrace this & run with it using a similar stance as Bill Clinton. Abortion should be safe, legal & rare. Emphasis on rare…

  • To me this is just a codification of what Democratic politicians have been saying for many years, and allows us to take political advantage of the benefits of our policies by making it clear that lowered abortions aren’t unintended consequences.

    jibeaux, i’m really getting tired of agreeing with you that “lowered abortions aren’t unintended consequences.” Of course they aren’t, and they aren’t unintended consequences of the platform and values the Democrats have right now.

    But you get there without adopting a framing that presumes that reducing abortion is an end in itself. Yes, such a platform change is of course changing the rhetoric, and such a change is completely unneccessary and unacceptable.

    I think you are the one fighting with a straw man when you continually point out how it’s a woman’s choice and that people should have freedom to make these decisions — no one on this board is making those arguments. No one.

    You may not intend to or want to, but if you acknowledging that reducing abortions is an end in and of itself, how do you counter the Republican desire to do so by banning it? you’ve already met them halfway by agreeing on the policy goal. Unacceptable.

    I completely fail to see how this would cost anyone votes.

    Your lack of imagination, or failure to acknowledge the influence and agenda of pro-choice voters, does nothing to support your position.

    Then you have people torn about it. These would be the target audience.

    You have not established that these people exist outside your imagination, in any significant numbers, that they would otherwise be inclined to vote Democratic, or that they would not be receptive that Democratic policies can have the effect of reducing abortions even if the party supports the right to choose.

    There is basically acceptance, or resignation, that abortion will remain legal and Roe will remain law

    Among who? Republicans? Where McCain is promising to appoint justices who would overturn Griswold, let alone Roe? (And I for one take him at his word on that one.) Come on!

    This is, to me, the essence of what is so appealing about an Obama candidacy: reaching out to voters we have not previously had, without compromising our stance on the issues.

    But adopting a reduction of abortions as an end in itself is in fact compromising the Democratic stance on the issue.

    I want a landslide.

    Then pissing off the base by conceding the abortion issue to the Republicans — and for no benefit you’ve been able to quantify apart from a vague indication of the Amy Sullivan Concern Troll vote — seems like a monumentally dumb idea.

    I might also add, given the metrics of this election, you have a task in front of you to establish that this issue would matter a tinker’s damn in enhancing the gathering pro-Democratic storm. Caving could well dampen the base’s enthusiasm, though — do we really want to follow the Republicans there?

    I want courageous Democrats who will stand up for values we believe in and the numbers to not have to compromise.

    Oh, then we’re in agreement — the Democrats should stand up for what they believe in — a woman’s right to choose — and shouldn’t compromise on an anti-abortion plank in their platform. Okay, then. Funny, it seemed to me you’ve been arguing, relentlessly

    I want lots and lots of new Democratic voters.

    You have yet to establish how embracing an anti-abortion plank in the platform would deliver these.

    I don’t want them because we’ ve taken some middle path and cut all the babies right in half and perfected the Clintons’ Third Way.

    It seems instead you’ve been arguing getting them by conceding the abortion issue to the Republicans entirely.

    I want them to vote for us even if they disagree with us because we’re going to deliver results that people can support.

    Which, in general, seems to be the trend with no change in the abortion plank.

    Fewer abortions is a result nearly everyone, give or take a half dozen folks on this blog, can support.

    And for the last time, fewer abortions as a result of sensible policy is indeed worthy of support. Fewer abortions as an end in itself — as a declared goal of the Party platform — is completely unacceptable. you have yet to demonstrate that you understand this distinction, let alone marshalled a convincing argument as to why the Democrats should cave to concern trolls like Wallis (who probably recognizes that the anti-abortion agenda is going nowhere fast with the Republicans) on this issue.

    To me, the “extremist” position is the one that says we can’t take a political position that enjoy nearly universal support, that is the essence of common sense, and that may well bring in new Democratic voters, because we’re drawing a line in the sand over “framing.”

    You have not established that an anti-abortion political position enjoys “nearly universal support,” that it is “the essence of common sense,” or that it’s likely to recruit a single new Democratic voter.

    It is established, however — it’s self-evident — that an anti-abortion plank — an established goal of reducing the number of abortions — goes beyond “framing” to an outright concession to and adoption of the Republican position.

    We do have the experience of 2002 and 2004 to remind us that spineless attempts to meet the GOP halfway, to agree with motives if not methods, gets Republicans elected (and doesn’t lead to bipartisan collegiality at that). Vigorous disagreement and contrast, a la 2006, however, gets votes. FISA is precisely comparable — an uncoscionable cave to an unpopular President. There is no reason at all to adopt an anti-abortion plank and plenty not to. Given your failure to muster any convincing argument in failure of conceding the Republican position — and your baffling inability to distinguish a reduction in abotion as a result of sensible policy versus a policy end in itself — I’m perfectly happen to let the status quo rest.

  • Politically, you want to draw the political dichotomy between “pro-choice” and “anti-choice”, and everything you do or say needs to move the other side away from being called “pro life” and toward being regarded as “anti choice”.

    That leaves room for “safe, legal, and rare”, because that implies providing a lot of choice on both the front end (before conception) and back end of problem pregnancies, and there should be plenty of operating room for women in that approach.

    I think a second message is that Democrats do not believe in using the law to control women’s bodies, a concept that can extend to some anti-choice advocates trying to interfere with birth control pharmaceutical/device access.

    That approach provides a lot of room for differing degrees of attitude on abortion on our side of the issue, and paints the other side as the den of extremism. Good judge choices then follow, along with no stupid laws or divisive policies in such things as fighting HIV/AIDS in the Third World.

  • jibeaux said….

    It’s a painful, wrenching choice.

    It is that the choice is sad, and painful.

    People are highly conflicted about abortion, including supporters, and that is a fact. It’s a sad and wrenching decision to have to make

    This is what I’m talking about. 30 years ago, after being assaulted by 2 men which resulted in pregnancy…it was not a sad and painful or painful and wrenching decision…it was necessary and thank goodness it was legal…this is not a strawmen argument…it has been stated by several commenters, including jibeaux, thruout the thread and is not necessarily true and only implys that a woman’s delicate psyche cant handle making decisions..

  • Nobody likes abortion: not the idea or the reality, not even if they fully accept the right and the necessity. B. Clinton’s phrase is spot on: safe, legal, rare. Although some here describe abortion as pretty much “just another” medical experience, it’s fraught with implication and significance. Witness the many comments here, the endless debate and conflict on the national scene.

    Those absolutely for and absolutely against share one thing: dismissive scorn for anyone who disagrees with them. Of all the pro-choicers I know (most of the people I know), exactly one did not dismiss as idiocy those who had a different opinion. He was Irish and had grown up among Catholics, and perhaps that is why he had some understanding of their concern. (He said, “I do not believe this is killing a human life, but if I did, the idea of abortion would be horrific.”)

    The unwillingness to respect people of good will who have come to different conclusions is disastrous; when we disparage good people who are genuinely troubled, we are unable to identify and separate out those, like Dobson, Bush, Rove and others, who use abortion as a purely political tool and wedge.

    Should Democrats make reducing pregnancy part of their platform? I’m guessing no. But CB’s idea — that this is worth thinking about — is sound. It is always good to think through ideas again if there is a new element to consider. I think someone could press McCain on his position with or without this in the Democratic platform, and it would be fun to see if McCain would renounce contraception too.

    (On the other hand, the man will say anything, and then say something different four hours later, so what he says is like everything else he says, irrelevant: he’s flipflopped so many times, issues really don’t matter and with him and it purely a matter of character — a lying bully who verbally abuses everybody including his wife, a hotdogger, a warmonger, a man of ignorance and ire, etc., etc.).

    What may also be worth thinking about is implementing a policy to reduce pregnancies after the election. It would not only make everyone happier — I cannot imagine that even the fiercest advocates of abortion above would object: does anyone ever like having an abortion? — but reduce medical costs, risks (every pregnancy and procedure has risks), and overall give people more choices in general.

  • Leave it alone, Sen. Obama. Just leave it the fuck alone.

    Absolutely, positively, without-a-doubt—NOT. Obama is taking the battle to the enemy; he’s attacking them with their issue, on their turf, and he’s doing it in the one way that these ReThug swamp-dwellers fear the most—by stripping them of support.

    Consider this for just a moment or three, if you will.

    Obama opens the can of worms that most rank-and-file Right-to-Lifers have been brought up believing a Dem would never touch.

    He just ripped it wide open for all to see. He just demonstrated, once again, that he is not going to run from these fools on any issue—not even their “numero uno” bread-and-butter issue. And he’s couching the subject in terms that most Right-to-Lifers can support—and that most Pro-Choicers can equally support.

    That’s how political triangulation is supposed to work—find a way to promoter your ideals to your opponent in a way that they can accept, without abandoning the core principles of your own constituency. It’s called “We’re gonna need a bigger tent.”

    Some might think he’s nuts. I prefer to think of him as “The Democratic Party weaponized.”

  • you managed to take my quote, where I reject the notion that wanting to reduce abortions has any moral implications whatsover, and attack me as if I had said that abortions are “morally abhorrent,” and further, that I want to criminalize them (”what else…”).

    For about the zillionth time — wanting to reduce abortions as a result of sensible policy decisions is one thing. And for the zillionth time, the Democratic Party platform already embraces this position, with no change to satisfy the likes of Amy Sullivan needed.

    Adopting a plank in the Party platform declaring a reduction in abortions as an end in itself — regardless of whether you oppose abortion on moral or practical grounds — is another. Such a concession to the GOP only gives ammunition to those who do believe that abortion is morally abhorrent and therefore will not compromise and, whatever one’s good intentions may be, is likely to result in legal restrictions on choice.

    It’s this inevitable result of adopting such a plank — the absurd folly of trying to meet halfway an extremist group that will never compromise — that I’m attacking, and I’m frankly not much interested in the pro-choice disclaimers of those who would advise such idiocy. Even with the best of intentions — and I’d like to take the opportunity to emphasize here that while I find jibeaux’s arguments utterly unconvincing, I have no reason to believe she is not sincere, however wrong I think she is — changing the Democratic Party platform to embrace an explicit goal of reducing abotions is utter folly and not to be suffered gladly.

    For all your clarification as to your stance, you don’t address again whether you’re in favor of the Democratic Party adopting an explictly anti-abortion plank in its Party platform, as Willis urges. If you are, I don’t really care whether you’re interested in reducing the number of abortions for moral or practical reasons. If you advocate adopting such a reduction as a specific platform goal — an end in itself — you’re on the side of the Randall Terry crowd, my criticism of your post stands, and your foolishness is to be avoided like the plague. We have one anti-abortion Party already; America doesn’t need another.

    If, however, I’m mistaken that you were arguing in favor of such a plan, I stand corrected. And I’ll emphasize again that I endorse wholeheartedly the Democratic policies that have the likely effect of reducing abortion — but not and never the adoption of that reduction as a goal in and of itself.

  • Should Democrats make reducing pregnancy part of their platform? I’m guessing no.

    Correction: Reducing unwanted pregnancy is already part of the Democratic platform. Of course, reducing unwanted pregnancy inehrently reduces the number of abortions. (You’ll still have abortions from the unwanted pregnancies that do occur, and the wanted pregnancies that threatent the life and health of the mother.)

    I contend that Democrats should not make reducing abortions an explicit policy goal.

    And I have to confess, I do have to wonder about anyone who at this late stage still fails to grasp the distinction.

  • The unwillingness to respect people of good will who have come to different conclusions is disastrous; when we disparage good people who are genuinely troubled, we are unable to identify and separate out those, like Dobson, Bush, Rove and others, who use abortion as a purely political tool and wedge.

    Excuse me, but who, exactly, as a matter of national Democratic policy, is doing this? No one that I can tell.

    Now, there are certainly anti-choicers with national forums who show little reluctance to demonize those who disagree with them. How this stance hurts them politically could be a subject for debate, but i’d argue that they received short-term benefits at least.

    I reject any notion that refusing to concede that abortion is wrong is rightly viewed as some sort of disparagement of those who are conflicted.

    Look, voters have two choices. If you would deny a woman’s right to choose what happens to her own body — even if she is raped by her own father — vote Republican. If not, vote Democrat. I see no reason for the Democrats to concede any righteousness in the Republican position. Certainly no good case has been made here so far.

  • locanicole, thank you. You’ve just reiterated one of my main points – that abortion is neither a moral tragedy nor a threat to America and we need to stop treating it as such. The real tragedy is that the victims here are women with limited or no choices, either to choose abortion or prevention. What happens to the women who can’t afford reproductive health care, do not have access to contraception, live in a town where pharmacists can exercise a moral “opt-out” of providing them with a legal prescription of birth control pills, are trapped by their economic situation in a relationship with an abusive partner, or who were victims of Bushites abstinence-only education? THAT is the plank the Democrats need to push – we care about the fate of women in this country, while Republicans would just as soon see all of you barefoot, pregnant, illiterate, and the property of your fathers and husbands.

    For some people, based on their religious convictions, abortion is a tragedy. Whoopee for them. No one will force them to have one. Fewer women who need escorts into the clinic to get past the rows of raving lunatics.

    Like you, my decision to have an abortion was neither sad nor wrenching nor painful. The logistics of carrying out of my decision to have one performed was wildly inconvenient, and costly at a time when I was dead broke from leaving an abusive partner. I am more grateful than I can say that it was not more costly, or that my state had only one clinic several hundred miles away, or one of those mandatory wait periods, or any one of a hundred measures pushed through by Republicans intent on keeping women as walking incubators and subjugated to the men in their lives. Again, the Democrats’ push to care about women at all income and education levels, from all backgrounds, should be the plank. Leave the word abortion out of it, FFS.

  • Steve,

    To clarify, because I think I wasn’t clear at first.

    I agree with Gregory: And for the last time, fewer abortions as a result of sensible policy is indeed worthy of support. Fewer abortions as an end in itself — as a declared goal of the Party platform — is completely unacceptable.

    The reason it is unacceptable is because it sets Democrats up to pass a moral judgment. That’s the Republicans’ job, let them fucking keep it. Republicans have been slowly and steadily chipping away at women’s rights since the day the Roe decision was announced, and not because they truly care about foetii, but because they hate women. They do that by throwing obstacles at women at every turn. Abstinence-only education, healthcare “reform” which doesn’t cover contraception (but will pay for Viagra and infertility treatments), opt-out clauses for pharmacists intent on imposing their religion, state-mandated counseling and waiting periods, economically squeezing women’s health clinics until they go under – all these are insidious tools used by that pit of vipers in the RNC to take women back to pre-Griswold days.

    If Sen. Obama wants to emphasize that Republicans are slowly and steadily taking away all of a woman’s life choices by eradicating pregnancy prevention, and then making abortion impossible, he should go for it. Then he can unveil his plan to put comprehensive sex ed back in schools, to truly reform healthcare to make contraception completely covered by insurance, to make affordable, quality healthcare available to low-income women, and then assisting those women who choose to bear children by ensuring that the social programs like Head Start, WIC, and school lunches remain in place and are accessible. THAT’S the message we need. Don’t use the “A” word, because everyone’s hair lights on fire.

    I find it ironic that the states which have the most restrictive abortion policies are the same states which have the least adequate measures to assist women and children, particularly low-income.

  • I attended a rally in 2004 at which John Edwards (among others) spoke about health care, minimum wage, college tuitions, and good jobs. “Pro-Life” people set up banners showing drawings of partial-birth abortions and calling us “baby killers”. It wasn’t a debate; it was just labeling. If we wanted universal health insurance, then we must be baby killers.

    Supporting universal health care should improve the U.S.’s shameful infant mortality rate so we are the opposite of “baby killers”, but I wouldn’t mind having “reducing the number of abortions” as a stated goal of Democrats. It’s not about winning the debate; it’s about pulling off the label.

  • Gregory, I keep trying to untangle your circular argument to find how it makes any sense—but all I keep seeing it your singular argument that “Adopting a plank in the Party platform declaring a reduction in abortions as an end in itself” is, by default, the equivalent of “the Democratic Party adopting an explicitly anti-abortion plank in its Party platform.” While you acknowledge that a goal of reducing abortions is sound policy, you likewise argue that sound policy and the Party Platform should somehow not be one and the same.

    From my post @93, above:

    If anyone wants to argue that the individual woman should “have the choice,” then the choice should include a full support system if she wants to keep the child, with an ancillary support system that would allow her to bring that child into this world for adoption, if she so chooses. That choice must, likewise, include the unquestioned right of the individual to terminate the pregnancy in an environment that is professionally trained, properly equipped, adequately protected from the fringe lunatics, and with the offer of comprehensive post-procedure support—both physical and psychological.

    Right there, Gregory, is your plank. If the individual woman wants to carry the pregnancy to term, she can do so—with the full faith and force of the Democratic Party, Obama Administration and the United States Government to support, protect, and defend that choice. If she chooses to terminate, then she can depend on the same faith and force to support, protect, and defend that choice with equal vigor.

    Where, in these words, do you see “anti-choice?”

  • I wouldn’t mind having “reducing the number of abortions” as a stated goal of Democrats.

    But as you’ve already indicated, the anti-choice crowd is not interested in compromise or good faith debate. So once you agree with them on the goal of reducing the number of abortions, they will demand that the Democrats do so by banning them outright. And what recourse will the Democrats have? They’d have already conceded the premise!

    It’s not about winning the debate; it’s about pulling off the label.

    Well, again, there’s no debating these fanatics, and they’re perfectly fine with sticking on whatever label suits them (see: so-called “Partial Birth Abortion.)

    We win the debate by pointing out that Democratic policies have the result of reducing abortions among other social benefits. Comprehensive sex education, for example, works — it reduces unwanted pregnancy, STDs, and even delays the onset of sexual activity.

    It doesn’t, however, punish sluts for having sex. So frame the choice that way. I know the bad faith of the modern conservative movement is frustrating, but why adopt Republican frames? You’ve already acknowledged how dishonest they are.

  • While you acknowledge that a goal of reducing abortions is sound policy, you likewise argue that sound policy and the Party Platform should somehow not be one and the same.

    No, Steve. The goal is sound policy; one result of sound policy — but not the only one! — is a reduction in abortion. And again, these sound policies are already in the Democratic platform. There’s no need for adopting an explictly anti-abortion plank.

    But the goal of a reduction in abortions is not sound policy. If you’re having trouble understanding this argument, it reflects poorly on your own comprehension and reading abilities, not the arguments presented at length in this thread.

    Where, in these words, do you see “anti-choice?”

    The plank you cite is not the topic of this debate. The topic is Willis’ suggestion that the Democratic Party adopt language in its platform expressing reducing abortions as a goal — an end in itself. This suggestion is unacceptable.

    Since the Party platform already is set to achieve that goal, among others, changing the language is unnecessary, and adopts the frame of the anti-choicers. And as we saw in the early years of this decade, once the Democrats concede the terms of debate to an opposition unintested in compromise, no compromise but rather capitulation is the inevitable result. It’s really as simple as that.

  • Keori,

    The reason it is unacceptable is because it sets Democrats up to pass a moral judgment.

    I fully agree—it “IS” a moral judgment. And it is a moral judgment that the Federal Government should make, because the right to choose is a moral right.

    A woman has, I believe, the most painful of moral responsibilities, because her moral values become paradoxical. I believe that if a woman believes she isn’t capable of properly caring for a child, then she has a moral obligation to not have that child. I believe that if a woman cannot provide adequately for herself during the in utero period, she should exercise her moral authority and choose termination of pregnancy.

    this is where the paradox lies—we have allowed the right-to-lifers (Gregory’s anti-choicers) to lay sole claim to the term “moral” and, by default, the means by which that word is defined. Bringing an unwanted child into an environment even partially lacking of desire, dedication, and love is, in and of itself, one of the most immoral things I can imagine anyone doing.

    And as for this:

    I find it ironic that the states which have the most restrictive abortion policies are the same states which have the least adequate measures to assist women and children, particularly low-income.

    This is why the authority for this decision must be stripped from the separate states, and given over to the Federal Government. A Federal presence who level the playing field, and any/all support could go directly to local community providers, thereby eliminating the “litmus-test” panderings of state legislatures.

  • this is where the paradox lies—we have allowed the right-to-lifers (Gregory’s anti-choicers) to lay sole claim to the term “moral”

    Well, yeah — you allow them by adopting their frame as “right to lifers” as opposed to what they are, anti-choicers (I remind you that the extremist elements are also opposed to the right to choose birth control).

    The anti-choice agenda is that a woman doesn’t control her own body, period, full stop. Why give them the moral comfort of the term “right to lifers”? How many — some, perhaps, but how many of the rabid anti-choice crowd oppose the death penalty or unnecessary military action?

  • Gregory, could you cite which “Democratic Party Platform” you’re referring to, and where it addresses this specific issue? The “2004” Platform is defunct, and it’s my belief that the “2008” Platform won’t be assembled until the Platform Committee meets.

    And—this should not be about “capitulation.” Rather, it is about giving a great big bunch of people an alternative to your “anti-choicers.” As I mentioned to Meori, we have allowed them to kidnap morality and bend its meaning to their twisted worldview. Abortion is a right that bears with it a responsibility—a “morality” whereby a child not being wanted may well be more immoral than that child simply not “being.” Those who argue the most against abortion have demonstrated decades of ignorance regarding hunger, malnourishment, inadequate healthcare, abuse, neglect, homelessness, poverty, international trafficking of humans for slave-labor and the illicit sex trades exploitation—-

    Which is the greater “morality?” In the greater relativity of things, existence for a child can be much, much more immoral than not existing at all….

  • Gregory, your “me-or-thee” is really beginning to show now. By arguing that I am somehow in the wrong by not embracing your select phraseology is not only an elemental weakness in discourse, but it is the exact same tactic that you are arguing against. Your terminology suggests that anyone who thinks carrying a pregnancy to term is preferable to aborting the pregnancy is “anti-choice.”

    Is that really the crux of your argument here?

  • I’m having a bit of problem with the whole “moral” premise. To say that something is moral, implies that something is right or wrong. Abortion should be neutral. and if you want to use labels I can say that I am pro-life, my life. I have no interest in forcing anyone to have an abortion, nor do I want to prevent them from having one if they feel it is necessary. People dont put this much angst into other medical decisions. I dont see demonstrators lined up outside of plastic surgery clinics demanding that people live with the bodies *gOd* gave them; but for some reason lots of people seem to be very concerned with other people’s sex lives and any other associated choices…go figure…all the terrible things going on in the world today(for those truly concerned about children go to FACESOFGRIEF.COM) and this is what concerns a certain group of loud, intrusive individuals…geez!

  • To say that a decision is moral, locanicole, is to weight the rights and wrongs of that decision as it is seen by the individual making that decision. No decision is truly “neutral”—and by no means can anyone successfully argue that abortion is neutral.

    No one is going to wake up in the middle of the night and wonder what the material removed during liposuction would be doing if the procedure hadn’t taken place—whether that unwanted body fat would be playing baseball, or doing well in school, or laughing at a silly kids’ program on TV. No one is going to wonder if their surgically-removed excess intestinal tract would grow up to be president one day (although some members of the Bush administration do remind me of an exceptionally-bothersome appendix I had removed just after my 19th birthday).

    The morality of a decision regarding abortion can no longer be held up as the sole property of the anti-abortion crowd in this country. Just as, for some, it can be morally wrong to abort a fetus, it can be equally immoral, if not more so, to bring the fetus to term and force a child to live under conditions that would make the secret prisons of Bush’s extraordinary rendition program seem pale by comparison.

    There are a great many children in the United States alone who suffer from such a life—a life that many might view as being a worse fate than being aborted, even—so citing a blogspot pertaining to Iraq could seem, to many, a rather self-righteous stunt on your part.

    Again—morality is relative to the individual faced with the decision—and nothing else….

  • Only liberals could go 125 rounds debating essentially whether or not advocating fewer abortions, a complete and total commonsensical proposition, represents a wholesale capitulation to the “framing” of the extreme right wing.

    Some actual polling on the subject is interesting: http://www.thirdway.org/data/product/file/59/abortion_memo.pdf

    Remember when I said, a mile wide and an inch deep?

  • jibeaux: And only you, apparently, could go 127 rounds completely missing the point (or maybe **purposefully** misrepresenting our position; I can’t tell which you’re doing). The way you are trying to approach this issue *is* a right-wing frame. Whether you want to admit it or not, that is the truth.

    Don’t like that? Tough. It remains the truth regardless of how you feel about it.

    Advocating liberal policies and noting that they result in prevention is perfectly fine, but making prevention the goal in and of itself is the republican way. That is what we have been posting, not your strawman version of our point.

  • The way you are trying to approach this issue *is* a right-wing frame.

    Read the link, with the polls. Read how people feel about these things.

    making prevention the goal in and of itself is the republican way

    It isn’t prevention, it’s reduction, because reduction should be common ground. Read the link. Read how people feel about these things. Consider the voters that we could have.

    To my knowledge, it has never been Democratic Dogma To Be Adhered To By All that There Shalt Be No Moral Dimension To Abortion and Any Attempt To Say Abortions Should Be Lessened is Anathema. If it is, BIll Clinton and every other Democratic politician who has succeeded in being elected is an apostate.

    Don’t like that? Tough. It remains the truth regardless of how you feel about it.
    We can have a civil debate. I love debate. I’m a lawyer. But things are not true just because you say they’re true, the world isn’t black and white, and as an argument, it blows. You have your point of view, and I have mine, and we can leave it at that.

  • misrepresenting our position

    In what way does this misrepresent the position? It was said, several times, paraphrased, that advocating for fewer abortions is a capitulation to right wing framing. You said:

    Advocating liberal policies and noting that they result in prevention is perfectly fine, but making prevention the goal in and of itself is the republican way.

    I think there is nothing “republican” about a goal of reducing abortions, and I see no meaningful distinction between your position and my representation of it.

  • Never get involved in a land war in Asia, never go against a Sicilian when Death is on the line, and never post a blog topic on abortion. I hope you’ve learned your lesson, Steve!

  • Never say “never,” jib. It exposes the hypocrisy of the legal profession, to wit:

    I love debate. I’m a lawyer.”

    And as for Mr. Benen “learning his lesson,” the only lesson I’m seeing in this particular thread is that abortion is a “charged” issue worthy of discourse. “Charged” as in high voltage. If nothing else, it is a singular issue with very factual repercussions on both major sides of the issue. It has many ancillary sides to each major side.

    And—it is an issue that will grab a person by the scruff of his/her neck, shake the lethargic apathy from their cobweb-clogged thoughts, and bring them to the table of national discourse in a way unseen since the Founders debated the radically-extremist madness of unilaterally declaring independence from a crazy English monarch named George.

    Abortion is the one issue—the issue greater than everything else combined—that will wake the sleeping Leviathan that is America. It is the one issue that the Religious Right does not want that Leviathan to discuss outside of their petty, holier-than-thou parameters. Obama knows this, and believes that is can be weaponized for use against the GOP.

    2008 isn’t just another campaign—it is the year of Resolve in which the Right shall feel the weight of Total War being waged upon them, from all sides, and with no chance for quarter.

    I say, “let’s talk about abortion.”

  • A couple observations:
    “Pro-abortion” DOES exist. The red Chinese encourage it.

    Abortion, in most cases is shameful, wrong, bad, tragic,etc.

    If only because it showed carelessness and a carries substantial cost and risk to health compared to proper use of contraception.

    This, of course, mindful that rape,incest, or risk to mother’s health presents different types of tragedy that the abortion is seen as likely to mitigate.

    If one wishes to assign moralism rather than mere cost and inconvenience, I would support those here who would deny anyone’s right to impose value on someone else’s in utero offspring beyond that of the mother. If she holds no moral worth to her fetus, I have no empirical basis to offer and must yield to her wish lest she impose her moral burdens on me another day.

    Even if abortion is immoral, many things a majority of americans would agree are immoral are and should be legal. Making morals into laws are what the other people try to do. So funny the same people are so worried about muslims taking over america and imposing sharia, a legal code largely based on subjective morals.

    Irony can be a lonely dancer.

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