Yet another GOP candidate rejects modern biology

Way back in May, in one of the more memorable debate moments of the year, John McCain was asked a straightforward question: “Do you believe in evolution?”

It’s the 21st century and McCain is an educated man, so it should have been an easy one, but he’s a Republican, and he needs to appeal to a far-right base that has little use for modern science — so he hesitated. After a pregnant pause, McCain said, “Yes.”

The Politico’s Jim VandeHei opened it up to the stage: “I’m curious, is there anybody on the stage that does not agree, believe in evolution?” The camera didn’t show the 10 candidates for very long, but three would-be presidents raised their hand: Sam Brownback, Mike Huckabee, and Tom Tancredo.

At the time, I was torn. Was it good news that seven in 10 Republican presidential candidates accept scientific reality, or was it bad news that three in 10 presidential hopefuls reject the foundation of modern biology?

As it turns out, though, there was one more evolution-denier on the stage who, for whatever reason, didn’t raise his hand at the time. Ron Chusid directed me to this Ron Paul video, posted to YouTube last week. Here’s the key exchange:

Audience member: I saw you in one of the earlier debates, all of the candidates were asked if they believe the theory of evolution to be true and they had a show of hands, but I didn’t see which way you voted, and I was wondering if you believe it to be true, and should it be taught in our schools.

Paul: First, I thought it was a very inappropriate question, you know, for the presidency to be decided on a scientific matter. And I, um, I think it’s a theory, theory of evolution, and I don’t accept it, you know, as a theory…. I just don’t think we’re at a point where anybody has absolute proof, on either side.

Yes, in 2007, 10 Republicans were running for president, and four of them reject modern biology.

To be sure, this may seem, at first blush, like a tangential issue. These guys are running for president, not a local school board, so their thoughts on biology aren’t likely to have any real impact on curricula any where in the country.

But I still think it’s relevant. For a presidential candidate, in 2007, to concede disbelief in evolution doesn’t reflect well on their understanding of facts and evidence. If they reject the overwhelming proof on modern biology, how will they deal with evidence regarding global warming? Or stem-cell research? Or a public health emergency? Or any public policy that deals with science?

Lawrence Krauss, a professor of physics and astronomy at Case Western Reserve University and chair of the Physics Section of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, recently had a good op-ed in the Wall Street Journal about science and the presidential candidates in general.

The day before the most recent Democratic presidential debate, the media reported a new study demonstrating that U.S. middle-school students, even in poorly performing states, do better on math and science tests than many of their peers in Europe. The bad news is that students in Asian countries, who are likely to be our chief economic competitors in the 21st century, significantly outperform all U.S. students, even those in the highest-achieving states.

While these figures were not raised in recent Democratic or Republican debates, they reflect a major challenge for the next president: the need to guide both the public and Congress to address the problems that have produced this “science gap,” as well as the serious consequences that may result from it.

America’s current economic strength derives from the investments in fundamental research and technology made a generation ago. Future strength will depend upon research being done today. One might argue that many key discoveries occurred as a result of importing scientific talent. But as foreign educational systems and economies flourish, our ability to attract and keep new talent could easily erode. Even with a continued foreign influx of scientific talent, it would be foolish to expect that we can maintain our technological leadership without a solid domestic workforce as well.

Almost all of the major challenges we will face as a nation in this new century, from the environment, national security and economic competitiveness to energy strategies, have a scientific or technological basis. Can a president who is not comfortable thinking about science hope to lead instead of follow? […]

Even if the American public is not currently focused on these concerns, decisions made by the next U.S. president on issues such as climate change, energy research, stem cells and nuclear proliferation will have a global impact. We owe it to the next generation to take ownership of these issues now. In spite of the ambivalence reflected in some polls, there is a popular understanding that science and technology will be essential to meet the challenges we face as a society. When reports began to surface warning that the avian flu might become a threat to humans, for example, everyone from the president down called for studies to determine how quickly the virus might mutate from birds to human beings. No one suggested that “intelligent design,” for example, could provide answers.

Precisely. Science matters — indeed, reality matters — to the nation’s ability to compete in the future.

At this point, only two of the remaining seven Republican presidential candidates (Mike Huckabee and Ron Paul) refuse to accept the cornerstone of modern biology, but that’s two too many.

Not to mention that Huckabee is pretty much the frontrunner now.

  • I think he doesn’t believe in everything about evolution. I think he might be the one who thinks God created everything, and evolution followed. He probably doesn’t think we descended from monkeys, but that evolution has played a roll with a lot of animals and plants and insects, etc.

    Doesn’t the Pope endorse the same type of thing? Where creationism and evolution are one? Also, he did say that there are no absolutes on either side, and I think he is right. Paul was never an absolutist.

  • The day before the most recent Democratic presidential debate, the media reported a new study demonstrating that U.S. middle-school students, even in poorly performing states, do better on math and science tests than many of their peers in Europe.

    Well, what does that mean? All the students in Latvia, Estonia, former Yugoslavia, and so, and presumably included, aren’t they? Even if you grow up in the mob-infested toilet which is the former Russia, which any smart person/family with marketable skills and the means presumably leaves, you are included in this study. If it said “Western Europe,” it would be more impressive.

    Re: the U.S.-Asia gap: Maybe that’s because all the parents in the red states are teaching their kids that football is more important than anything in life, and that science and math are for dumb nerds who don’t count. If these parents could get over their asinine attitude that they hold just because they don’t want to feel inferior, or don’t want their kids to feel inferior- it’s not as if smart people are out to try to hmiliate you, and in smarter countries, everyone uses their skills and talents and worls together and respects each other- we wouldn’t have the gap.

  • What’s wrong with what Ron Paul said? Evolution IS a theory.

    Micro-evolution (the adaptation of species to their environment) is a proven and observable phenomena. However, Macro-evolution (species turning into a whole new species) has never been proven and there is more evidence against this theory than there is evidence for it. See “The Evolution of the Species Revisited.”

    Ron Paul is simply humble enough to say he believes in a creator, but he isn’t firm on his belief on how this creator went about creating. What’s wrong with that?

  • Interestingly enough, Paul did NOT raise his hand at that debate. Also, from what I gather, Paul really isn’t interested in opposing his own personal views on anyone -so I think its a non-issue.

    Thanks,

    James

  • I think many people in science have honest issues in resolving the teachings found in the Bible with accumulating scientific evidence about evolution. Paul is not unique in this regard.

    Ron Paul is not in the same category as other Republicans (like Huckabee and others). He is a medical doctor who went to one of the finest medical schools (Duke) in the country. As such, he has an extensive background and training in the medical and biologic sciences. One must concede, at the time that he went to medical school, a lot less was known about genetics and evolution on the molecular level than today.

    In fact, Dr. Paul even published a scientific paper, in 1969, soon after his fellowship (post MD training) in Obstetrics and Gynecology at the University of Pittsburgh hospitals:

    Obstet Gynecol. 1969 Aug;34(2):235-41.
    Evaluation of renal biopsy in pregnancy toxemia.
    Paul RE, Hayashi TT, Pardo V, Fisher ER.

    Here is the link:
    http://www.greenjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/34/2/235

    So I don’t believe that Dr. Paul would be anti-science.

  • “Jeez the Ron Paul nuts are out in force today. Or is it just one guy changing names?”

    Gosh, Dale. That seems a little rude.

    What comments from RP supporters have been “nuts”?

  • So he’s hedging his bets, trying to please the Imperial Evangelic Propagandists of Das Base. And here I thought that Paul wasn’t into “IEPs….”

    What. A. Maroon.

  • Trey #5 – Nonsense. There’s no evidence against speciation. The inferential evidence is overwhelming.

    For direct evidence of speciation in complex organisms in the lab, in experiments with nematodes, see Scientific American, December 2007, page 36, under “Biology – Evolution in a Petri Dish.”

  • One does not have to profess a belief in evolution to get into med school, so it’s pretty pretty much irrelevant to whether one gets through, gets the degree and gets licensed to practice.

    Science is important, as is having a mind open enough to consider all schools of thought in a way that doesn’t stifle discussion and discovery. One of the things that seems to follow from not accepting that evolution explains our existence is a general fear that research and discovery will endanger the belief in creationism. I’m not saying people cannot believe in creationism, but I don’t particularly want someone who does driving – and making – science policy.

  • In the seventies, just when group jogging was gearing up, we learned we all had to move at the pace of our most sluggish member. I mean, slowest jogger. This has become a feature in public life which made possible No Child Left Behind, Reality shows, and the occupant of the White House today. If you vote for the least of mine, you vote for me.

    So we have not advanced to the level of Evolution as an issue. We are at the point where that panelist on the TV show The View lives. She doesn’t know if the world is round. She says she doesn’t have to know. She didn’t understand all the talk about Greeks and Romans and BC. wasn’t Jesus before everything?

    So a more legitimate question to the panel would have been: “Do you believe the earth is spherical?”

  • Ron Paul has an undergraduate degree in biology and a medical degree from Duke. That qualifies him as a trained scientist. Therefore it is disgraceful for him to use the “only a theory” argument about evolution.

    In common, non-scientific usage, “theory” often means conjecture, opinion, or speculation. In scientific terms, almost everything that we take to be true and commonplace is “only a theory.” Einstein’s “theory” of relativity, proven over and over, is “only a theory.” Gravity is “only a theory.” It is only in this sense that Darwin’s theory of evolution is “only a theory.” Ron Paul is no uneducated hick. He knows better, and he ought to be ashamed of that answer.

    We’ve already suffered through seven of the eight years of a presidency that is openly hostile to good science. A candidate’s approach to scientific questions has overwhelming relevance to a presidential campaign, and I won’t vote for anyone who dismisses science as “only a theory.”

  • John (#10) asked:

    What comments from RP supporters have been “nuts”?

    All of them, you permanent pre-pubescent drooler too stupid to be a Randian. But I do hope you all fly your blimp on into the general election so the Dimwits & Droolers Chowderhead Marching Society will have something to occupy your tiny minds. Thanks for proving the truth of Mencken’s statement that “nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.”

  • Like it or not, practically all the great thinkers of all time believed in some form of creationism. Would you have me believe that Dr Martin Luther King Jr was a strict evolutionist?

    Also like it or not, while the evolution of species is indeed a fact in proper scientific terminology, there are large chunks of the human evolutionary theory that are missing, although I do suspect that in the long run they will bear out.

    And for the record, I’m not a Christian or a scientist. I could just give a rat’s ass about where we came from. The fact that we are here now is the important thing.

    Like the guy above said, Paul isn’t an absolutist. And I suspect he could care less about which theory you teach your children.

  • “What comments from RP supporters have been “nuts”?”

    As is obvious in any thread on any blogs which are subjected to invasion of the Paul supporters, they are certainly incapable of determining whether a comment from one of their own is nuts. In this case, any comment which does not recognize that evolution is a foundation of modern biology is nuts. Any comment which says it is just a theory, failing to understand how the word theory is used different in science than in common language, is nuts. Anyone comment that claims that evolution is unproven is totally unaware of the scientific literature, and is nuts. Anyone who doesn’t think it doesn’t realize how important biological advances will be to public policy in upcoming years is nuts. Anyone who doesn’t recognize how important it is for a president to at least have a basic comprehension of modern science is nuts.

  • Tom Cleaver:

    Calling other posters names, while accusing them of being prepubescent is just wonderfully ironic, don’t you agree?

    Tag – you’re it!

  • If we’re confused on what the scientific words “theory” and “fact” mean, let me toss this out: Theory is a particular kind of explanatory construct to explain and describe the nature of something. A theory can be true (like gravity) or false (like astrology). Whether it is true or not has nothing to do with its being a theory. It has to do with whether the theory describes reality or not. Evolution is considered in science a “true” theory, in the way that gravity is considered a true theory – they both describe the reality that we find in nature. A theory does not cease to be a theory because it is demonstrated to be true – because it does not cease to be the kind of construct that it is.

    A “fact” is actually a statement or proposition asserted to be true about something. A fact can be true (it is a fact that gold has such-and-such a chemical composition) or it can be proved not true (the previously asserted “fact’ that the earth is flat was proved not true). Once we demonstrate that an asserted “fact” is not true, we usually cease to call it a fact.

    Part of the confusion about evolution is that the theory describes several different aspects about nature, First, it asserts that life evolved from the most primitive living organism, for billions of years, to the complex life we have today (including humans). This aspect of the theory is NOT in dispute among scientists. Scientists consider that evolution in this sense has been proven true. Evolution is considered by scientists to be a fact!

    I copied this from:
    http://www.perspectives.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=60137&forum_id=73

  • What Paul believes on Evolution is not important, since he is against Federal control of education. If the hicks in KS, AL, MS, and the rest of the bible belt want to teach creation in their schools, and suffer the resultant brain drain, that is their state’s perogative. Meanwhile, those of us on the Pacific Seaboard, WA, OR, CA, and AK can teach evolution, and our heavily Asian populace will drive us toward economic superiority. I am a wildlife biologist, and have witnessed evolution first hand (though not in a laboratory repeatable experiment) yet I support Ron Paul for President for constitutional and foreign policy reasons as an Iraq Veteran, and army reservist more than anything else.

    -Jack

  • the “theory” of evolution is no such thing. it is “FACT”. people who misrepresent the term “theory” as it is used in science are either ignorant or disingenous. is the jury still out on the “theory” of gravity??? anyone who is intellectually honest and does a modest amount of study in the area of biology and evolution will come to realize that to say we evolved from less complex organisims is as solid a statement as 2+2=4. unfortunately, politicians (even ron paul) must pander to a huge swath of the population who still believe the earth is 5000 years old. is there any wonder we lag in math and science? some time in the not too distant future we (the USA) will be in the same position as athens, rome, spain, portugal, holland, england, etc. we will have been the most prosperous nation in the world but we allowed it to slip away because of greed and ignornace. in 100 years time there will still be only one super power…it will be china. for this there will be many reasons. one of the major reasons will be our government being controlled by flag waving, cross carrying citizens with antiquated superstitions. these informed citizens hold up a book for whom the authors the wheelbarrow was the extent of innovation. i ask again, is there any wonder we lag in math and science???

  • It seems to be that the absolutist comments of believers in evolution are sometimes as asinine as the absolutist comments of the Creationism crowd. Obviously, there is nor can there be any scientific support for Creationism, but to swing the opposite pole and claim that everything about humanity is explainable by evolution is equally absurd. I would say that “evolution” on a micro scale is scientific fact, but when people discuss “evolution” in the political arena, they normally are referring to the notion that humans developed from some ancient species of primate.

    There is plenty of evidence to support this theory, but is just a theory. It certainly does not have the scientific solidity of a “micro” theory of evolution.

    I think Ron Paul’s comments above are completely appropriate. The more important question is whether the federal government should be decreeing that local schools teach evolution. On that point, Paul is against “evolution”. Not the science itself, but the structure that allows the federal government to determine what is the “correct” thing to teach and force local school boards to toe that federally mandated line. On this point, he is absolutely correct.

  • Ron Paul received contributions from over 100,000 different people this quarter. He received $18,000,000 from those 100,000 people. His support is wide and deep. Look around your town and notice you see RP signs everywhere. Grab a cup of coffee and go to http://freeme.tv

  • it does not help scientists to politicize science. it only helps politicians. most people don’t understand the concept of scientific theory, as evidenced by this blog post and many responses. science should not be a litmus test.

    I’m confident that Ron Paul would support the following:
    1. Leave science and scientists alone!
    2. Encourage your kids to study science.

    Anything else is political games. He made a mistake in addressing the question because it gives idiots something to talk about.

  • Like it or not, practically all the great thinkers of all time believed in some form of creationism. — Alexia
    And like it or not, Isaac Newton believed in alchemy. Who are we do completely disregard the views of one of the greatest scientists of all-time? And that’s not even mentioning all the non-scientists who are perfectly qualified to tell you what you should believe about a scientific subject. Also like it or not, while chemistry is in fact proper scientific terminology, there are large chunks of human chemistry that are unknown.

    Why should we completely ignore alchemy while clearly showing a bias for chemistry? Really now, you just shouldn’t care what is taught to our children. It should be up to states to decide whether or or not to teach both sides, those who want to be fair and balanced can teach chemistry and alchemy side-by-side, while even those who want to be horrifically biased and are terrified of exposing people to different viewpoints can just teach chemistry. Again, the point is that this is a states rights issue, we shouldn’t worry at all what other people in other parts of the country are teaching.

    Idiot.

    I want to know whether a presidential candidate believes in evolution for the same reason I want to know if he (or she!) believes the world is flat or round. After all, the shape of the earth doesn’t have bearing on politics, therefore you should have no issue if the person who wants to lead our country thinks the world is flat, right?

  • Ron Paul received contributions from over 100,000 different people this quarter. He received $18,000,000 from those 100,000 people. His support is wide and deep. Look around your town and notice you see RP signs everywhere. Grab a cup of coffee and go to — Mayberry

    This is why Ron Paul supporters are nuts. This is about Paul’s views about evolution and we get people (and this isn’t the only one) completely ignoring it.

  • creationism would be marginalized if it’s supporters were unable to legislate their ideas at the federal level and receive federal funding. they’d have to fend for their own, which would probably be a good thing.

    creationism is a useless theory in science, except as a footnote in the history of science. however, we should tolerate creationism as a faith. being civilized means living with contradictions. we can believe in god, while using science. science is not faith,

  • Can we please stop with the scientific loyalty oaths?

    If you’re aching to point your finger in a righteous j’accuse, join a religion. That’s what they’re there for.

    The parasitic know-nothings who glom on to the achievements of science have become worse than the fucking Christians. Science, unlike Jesus, does not care what you believe. Please end your witch burning and grotesque self-congratulation.

  • Actually, the current “theory of evolution” IS wrong and differs from what was originally propounded by Darwin. The colloquial understanding of evolution is “survival of the fittest” where changes in DNA take place that increase the life form’s ability to survive in a given environment. These changes are then passed forward to their children, etc. This is not the case. Mutations are occurring ALL THE TIME and only those the DIMINISH the life form’s ability to exist IN IT’S ENVIRONMENT are not propagated. That’s why complex organs like an eye can form where there was only a light-sensitive patch of skin before. The theory of evolution which you should then hear on TV all the time ISN’T “survival of the fittest” but “death of the least fit”.

  • He also supports home schooling, the breeding ground of brain washed children of tv evangelists. Children being taught by semi illiterate parents that we are the direct descendents of Adam and Eve. Anyhow is a waste of bandwith, he doesn’t stand a chance.

  • TERMS: Doesn’t labeling evolution (or global warming) a “hypothesis” mean it’s only speculation? Whereas “theory” means that in fact it has been scientifically proven? So saying evolution is “only a theory” is colloquialistic?

  • > So I don’t believe that Dr. Paul would be anti-science.

    He’d eliminate all federal research in science. That’s as anti-science as it’s possible for a president to be.

  • I’m not a Paul supporter and I may be mistaken here, but I don’t believe he said he was a believer in “creationism.” Not believing in Darwin’s theory doesn’t necessarily put one in an anti-modern science position on in a Christian fundamentalist’s camp.

    This, like so many others things, is such a “hot button” issue that quickly “devolves” into vitriolic name-calling, which only results in nobody listening to anyone.

    Like John Stewart says – clusterf*#k to the White House.

    I saw Paul on ‘Meet The Press” this Sunday morning and just sat here amazed at the infantile questioning of Russert as he tried over and over again to limit Paul’s views and answers to one simple word or one sentence responses.

    Everyone loses in that kind of exchange. Paul’s initial response was almost always a lead-in to a more nuanced (sic) and complex answer. So many times he was unable to get there until he finally, through frustration, simply told Russert how wrong he was and for all intents and purposes demanded he shut up and listen.

    I don’t agree with a lot of what Paul has to say, but I never feel like he is being anything but totally honest in his responses and that his views are well thought out. He also listens. And unlike so many he actually answers the questions.

    He probably is too intelligent to be President. That is sometimes the case.

  • “But I still think it’s relevant. For a presidential candidate, in 2007, to concede disbelief in evolution doesn’t reflect well on their understanding of facts and evidence.”

    There was a time when the evidence and general belief was that the world was flat. If living then and writing, you might say that trying to sail east by going west is an idiotic notion and defies all scientific knowledge.

    The issue of Evolution is irrelevant to the platform upon which he is running. Local school districts would make the determination to teach it or not.

    What is really irrelevant are writers such as yourself who seek to detract from the support of Dr. Paul, or anyone else not on the status quo wagon, with articles based on thin connections of concepts that have no bearing on the important matters to be discussed.

    The choice is simple. You believe in individual liberty and the republic, or you believe that the federal state is the more important. Choosing the later, can come only if you forget that the who purpose of the Federal Govt. is to defend the liberty of THE PEOPLE, not the Fed.

    Liberty in 08

  • Either/or. I do wish, JD, life were that simple. While Ron Paul has some decent ideas and a lot of vocal support, he goes his own way. That is a virtue for an individual but in a democratic government it’s all about building consensus. Go-their-own-way leaders tend to become dictators. As admirable as he may be as a human being, Ron Paul is not someone I would like to see as president. Considering how he is polling, most voters feel the same.

  • I noticed how you kept saying “modern biology”. You do realize that ‘modern’ is a temporary state of being right? Modern? Thats transient. It used to be “modern” medicine to put leeches on people to suck the illness out of their blood. It was a nice theory and logically it COULD maybe work. But it didn’t work. 🙁 It sucked the good out with the bad.

    I tend to stick my feet into ground more permanent thanks.

    I would have raised my hand because it IS a legitimate THEORY and I am glad they are still teaching it as that. Im not going to believe in it. What is that going to accomplish. I certainly wouldn’t want it so I can have the right to be smug around non-believers.

    I don’t want to be a ‘modern’ genius when I could be an all-time average intelligence free thinking person.

  • alexia writes: A theory can be true (like gravity) or false (like astrology).

    This, among other nonsense you’ve written here, shows your abysmal ignorance of the concept of theory in science. Astrology is NOT a theory, period. Who the hell ever heard of true or false theories? Astrology is BS, as is your exposition on theories.

  • President Lindsay said:

    Who the hell ever heard of true or false theories?

    Theory is just the next step after hypothesis (educated guess). So I suppose that a theory can be proven to be false, maybe not proven true if there isn’t the ability to do so.

  • Trey #5: “Micro-evolution (the adaptation of species to their environment) is a proven and observable phenomena. However, Macro-evolution (species turning into a whole new species) has never been proven and there is more evidence against this theory than there is evidence for it.”

    Oh for goodness sake, not this stupidity again. There is no such thing as “macro-evolution” or “micro-evolution”. There is just “evolution”. And speciation has been observed. Repeatedly.

    Stop listening to what the creationist kooks tell you about evolution. They don’t know what they’re talking about.

  • I’m a little hesitant to enter the Fact vs Theory discussion, but as an amateur “Truth Seeker” for many years I think the point may be better understood by realizing that there are insidious traps in languages that ensnare critical thinking required in “Truth Seeking”. The biggest trap in the language is that the word “fact” means that it refers to a fundamental reality that is ‘almost’ beyond dispute, the endgame, you might say. Such a statement of fact may be: I am sitting in front of my computer typing out a series of words attempting to deal with another set of words, ‘Fact and Theory’. I know that I am doing this, within the framework set by the Chinese philosopher who, (I am paraphrasing), said, I have just woken from a dream of being a butterfly; now I am not sure if it was I dreaming I was a butterfly or if I am now a dream by a butterfly, dreaming it is a human”. Notwithstanding this concept, all you out there who cannot see me must accept or reject my statement of what I am doing as a theory until you or others whose word you trust, can actually see me and test the reality of my statement.
    This is much more than just being playful with words, however, as the history of both the established churches and the learned scholars, who would later became known as scientists well knew. The Christian Church based their absolute power on their monopoly of the existing and unchanging, “Truth”. Anyone who questioned this “Truth” frequently wound up burned at the stake or worse. Consider the number of women who were judged as and disposed of, as witches when in many situations they were guilty of nothing more than being midwives or practitioners of healing by herbal medicines and other techniques. It was a “True Fact”, promulgated by the church that sickness of any kind was the result of being inflicted by devils or Satan himself. Therefore healing of any kind was the obvious and proper monopoly of the church and woe be to anybody who challenged this power/monopoly.
    So it was when people; sometimes religious people, from established religious institutions, (think Mendel and his work with peas), began to examine the world around them in a systematic way that challenged the pool of knowledge or attempted to add to this “Truth”, without the permission of the Church authorities. They well understood the magnitude of the trouble they were inviting upon themselves if God or the even the Church considered them to be questioning “Gods Devine Truths”, sticking their nose into Gods and the Churches proper business.
    It became prudent to describe their observations and the conclusions that they reached when many observations under similar conditions coincided, as a theory or explanation rather than as a “Fact”. This avoided the problem being accused of directly challenging the power/monopoly that the Church held on “True Facts” and thus having to either stop their work and disavow what they had seen in their investigations or risk being burnt, both on earth and very possibly eternally in Hellfire.
    As more scholars collected information they realized that the tantalizing bits of information they were observing only made sense if it others came across the same clues under similar conditions often enough to be assembled into some larger pattern.
    Facts and Truths were not the answers: they were the endgame. Theory was record of the track toward the endgame.
    David Chisholm

  • Oh yeah, you better believe it matters whether someone who would be POTUS understands enough science to know that evolution has long been recognized as a fact by the scientific community. Among those guided by rationality rather than faith, the matter has long been settled, and the “controversy” perpetuated by religionists has grown tiresome.

    I don’t know whether to laugh or cry when I hear someone say evolution is a “theory,” as if that shows it’s not a fact. Scientists use the term theory sometimes to refer to a hypothesis to be tested and sometimes to refer to a system of related facts–as in the theory of gravity or the theory of plate techtonics. The theory of evolution has long since fallen into the latter category.

    The candidates who have denied believing evolution have revealed themselves to be either liars pandering to religionists rejecting objective reality in favor of their faith or, perhaps worse, fools who actually buy the religionists’ denial of reality. Either way, they are unqualified–way, way unqualified–to serve as POTUS.

  • Well, just to throw my two cents in.

    I’m from Kansas, and I believe in evolution wholeheartedly. I think religion is a crock and makes no more sense than believing in magic and witchcraft and unicorns.

    I also support Dr. Paul 100% for President, and I try not to hold his being a Christian against him. He’s got too many other positive aspects for me to ignore, he’s the best of the bunch when it comes to candidates. If I were a socialist, I’d go for Kucinich – he’s the only Democrat worth a lick.

    That said, I’ve got no proof Christianity is wrong – Just no proof its right, either.

    Jason

  • Look. I am all for religious freedom. That is, after all, one of the founding principles of the country. And I am a benefactor of this great gift of the Constitution. But no matter how you try to gussy it up, intelligent design is just Biblical Creation repackaged with scientific sounding double-speak.

    Science involves observation of what we see, touch, smell, hear or taste and developing a theory to explain it. Then that theory is tested using real scientific methods and careful documentation of the observations. Based on the data collected, the theory becomes more likely to be true or less likely. Then, the theory is systematically refined based on what was learned and new tests are performed. And thus, over time, we learn more and more about how things really work.

    Intelligent design begins with the assumption that every word in an ancient text, written down by people who came along centuries later, translated and re-translated and re-re-translated, is the 100% undeniable truth. Keep in mind that the world view of the peoples who passed on these stories encompassed everything up to that mountain over there. Then you perform any number of mental contortions to try force science to fit the preconceived notions laid out in the text. Dress it up with enough scienctific sounding jargon and many people will believe it is actual science. Which, is the real goal. Make it sound like a scientific theory and maybe you can force biblical creation into the science classroom.

    I am all for a comparative religions class in public schools. One that takes a historical and impartial look at serveral of the great religious movements, but does not lift one above the others. That is the proper venue for religon in the classroom.

    The problem is that many people who take the biblical creation story literally, do not want their children to hear about evolution or other religious ideas at all. What they really want is for only their one narrow vision of things to ever be heard.

    What does any of this have to do with a presidential candidate’s denial of evolution? Plenty. Any person who would make such a statement in the twenty-first century is either completely ignorant of reality or understands it perfactly and says he doesn’t believe it to pander to a constutuency stuck in the middle ages.

  • Every time I read some Paul Guy use the word “socialist,” I think to myself, what an ignorant selfish, greedy asshole. Or maybe just stupidly ignorant. Still an asshole, though.
    Just like Ron Paul.
    Ron Paul is a greedy asshole, a class warrior who want to keep you people too stupid to earn six figures a year in a permanent snit about the government trying to raise the standards of the common American people. Some people are just too stupid to help, I guess.
    So suck up that outrage peons! Dr. Ron Paul will help make America more like Mexico (50% poverty level) or Afganistan (a Libertarians dream! A weak central govenment, so more liberty!).
    You think Dubya’s reign of error was bad for the common man? Ron Paul would be way worse.

  • Okay, let’s talk about theories. Theories can never be verified, they can only be falsified. To say that you beleive a throey is true, is not a scientific or philosophical pronouncement, but a statement of faith – like claiming it’s true that Jesus died for our sins.

    There are numerous parts to the theory of evolution, just like there are numerous parts to our theory of gravitation. These theories change all the time. In fact, our theory of gravitation was not setteld with Newton, and has had major overhauls within the last 100 years – and minor overhauls within the last 20 years.

    The idea that we came from monkeys is obsurd. Monkeys, and all species alive today are just as evolved as we are. Even the term species is not really addequate for much of the discussion about evolution. A species is made up of organizms that can produce viable, reproducable offspring. Take three points in time – today, 100,000 y.a., and 200,000 y.a. Assume the man from today was the same species as the man from 100,000 y.a., and the man from 100,000 y.a. was the same as the man from 200,000 y.a. Now assume that the man from today was not the same species as the man from 200,00 y.a. Has evolution occured? Is the man from 100,000 y.a. the member of two seperate species at the same time?

    Paul was giving his best scientific answer to a scientific question. If you want an act of faith, ask him about his personal savior, not scientific theory.

  • Evolution is a theory. I happen to believe that it is likely true. I think God set up the rules to make evolution happen. From a religious point of view, it becomes a question of inerrancy (is the Bible, written thousands of years ago, literally true?). From the scientific perspective, evolution is the best explanation that we have come up with. I suspect both viewpoints will likely be shown to be wrong in a 100 years. That is the nature of human progress. Because of Ron Paul’s Constitutional approach, I am quite sure that evolution will not affect Ron Paul’s ability to act on Iraq and the Federal Reserve. Additionally he does NOT want the Federal government involved in education or teaching evolution. That is a state function. There are a lot of litmus tests (like abortion and evolution teaching or prayer in the schools) being used in America to determine who we should vote for President. Ron Paul will not impose his viewpoint on America on these issues. He will send them back to the states as the Constitution calls for them to be. With other candidates who want these litmus tests to be federal issues, I would have trouble voting for them (like Huckabee). But with Ron Paul it is not an issue because he would not be deciding them, the states would be dealing with these particular litmus issues.

  • rhys,

    Your hypothetical is interesting. I don’t see how it argues against evolution though. Evolution is a gradual process. It may very well be that an organism midway in the time period you chose could successfully breed with both its forebearers at the beginning of the period and with its progeny at the end of the period while the organisms at the far ends of the time scale could not successfully breed with each other. Whether and how we label the organisms as separate “species” during this process is more a matter of how we can most usefully describe and discuss the underlying facts. The labeling, of course, does not change the underlying reality.

    We need not do a mind experiment through time, though, to see such speciation. We can observe it today in “ring species,” which are species with a geographic distribution that forms a ring and overlaps at the ends. For instance, the many subspecies of Ensatina salamanders in California exhibit subtle morphological and genetic differences all along their range on both sides of the San Joaquin Valley. They all interbreed with their immediate neighbors with one exception. Where the extreme ends of the range overlap in Southern California, E. klauberi and E. eschscholtzii do not interbreed. So where do we mark the point of speciation? See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/05/2/l_052_05.html

  • From a religious point of view, it becomes a question of inerrancy (is the Bible, written thousands of years ago, literally true?). From the scientific perspective, evolution is the best explanation that we have come up with. I suspect both viewpoints will likely be shown to be wrong in a 100 years. That is the nature of human progress.

    You don’t have to wait 100 years for the Bible to be proven to be full of errors. Even without any other vantage point, just read the damn thing and take note of all its inconsistencies. Anything that contradicts itself over and over again is, by definition, not inerrant. As for evolution being proven wrong in 100 years, put down your Bible and read some books on it so you understand what it is, at which point you would easily see that in 100 or 1000 years evolution will still be valid. We’ll understand more about how it works, about the connections that are as yet undiscovered, but the principle isn’t something that’s going to suddenly change, any more than the laws of physics. (Yes, I know about quantum physics, I’m talking about classical—bigger stuff, you know?)

  • That debate occurred before the entrance of Alan Keyes into the race, and I will go out on a limb and assume that he does not accept evolution either.

    Brian

  • “If they reject the overwhelming proof on modern biology, how will they deal with evidence regarding global warming? Or stem-cell research? Or a public health emergency? Or any public policy that deals with science?”

    Hell, that’s easy. Everyone knows the answer to that one – any disaster is a sign of the wrath of God. So, obviously the diety must be appeased. Cover the women and sacrifice something! Preferably a virgin, but you can try starting with a couple of animals first. See if that works.

  • Re: #18 Alexia,

    “Would you have me believe that Dr Martin Luther King Jr was a strict evolutionist?”

    Yes, I would.

    Besides the fact that Dr. King was a highly educated and sophisticated man who was capable of understanding science and the literary constraints of the Bible, and besides the fact that Dr. King used the same kind of literary constructs in his lessons and speeches as can be found in the Bible, the non-violent Civil Rights Movement that he helped foster and guide was in itself a model of evolutionary behavior and thinking on a societal level.

  • Dr. Ron Paul doesn’t believe in evolution??? Doctor?? Presumably, Dr. Ron Paul has taken a science class or two. Yet he can still parrot the inane line that “I think it’s a theory, theory of evolution, and I don’t accept it, you know, as a theory…. I just don’t think we’re at a point where anybody has absolute proof, on either side.”

    As a scientist, he should know better. Evolution isn’t “a theory” in the “fanciful idea” sense of the word. Evolution is SCIENTIFIC theory, which is subject to empirical evidence and peer review. In science world, evolution as “a theory” is pretty darn close to what lay-people would consider fact.

    Any potential president who denies the very fundamentals of basic scientific inquiry deserves to be hoisted back upon the turnip truck from whence he fell.

  • Oh, my. This is a lot more upsetting to me than I would have expected. I’m a liberal, and Ron Paul was about the only Republican I could imagine getting behind. I disagreed with a lot, but he’s smart and I admired him.

    He CAN’T actually not believe in evolution. He’s kowtowing to people who wouldn’t vote for him if he was paying them. That it should come to this!

  • #27, Nautilator

    “Isaac Newton believed in alchemy.” The “alchemy” that Newton believed in was the rudimentary forerunner of today’s chemistry, which did not exist as a science in his time. In fact, most of what we call science today did not exist in his time.

    It evolved.

    Alchemy evolved into chemistry as we gained more knowledge, which has evolved into all of today’s various branches of chemistry.

  • Yanno, like all debate about science, all I see here is a bunch of wonks parroting whatever they were told and namecalling anyone who doesn’t espouse whatever they find personally comfortable and ‘mainstream’.

    Whatever. It’s all politics, and I think politics and science in no way mix.

    I am also deeply suspicious of the commitment to Democracy on the part of any person who is a one issue, or limited number of issues voter–as it clearly denotes a serious shortcoming in the realm of education about government and the Constitution itself. I’ll note that without the understanding to be a competent voter, all you wind up with is Science ruled by the whims of tyranny.

    Ooops…I forgot, that’s what we have now. On BOTH sides.

  • One other thought – evolution occurs as a route to survival through adaptation.

    Right now, the evolution we as a species are going thru in order to survive includes reliquishing modes of thought and behavior which no longer serve to help us survive.

    Magical thinking, or superstitious beliefs, served a purpose once. Rigidly entrenched beliefs provided a common social construct under which groups could develop and survive against external threats. but many of those beliefs no longer help us survive and in fact threaten our survival. We are in the process of evolving away from what no longer serves.

    Most behavior rules attributed to magical thinking had roots in sustaining the group in some way. They had to do with everything from food safety (halal & kosher food rules) to controlling the group’s breeding practices. Most of our fear of homosexuality came from a fear of the group dying out if breeding were curtailed for any reason.

    Incest is prohibited in virtually every society because the lack of sufficient genetic variety produces unsustainable genetic variations, or what were once thought of as monsters, or the curse of a vengeful god against a sinner. Monsters weren’t allowed to reproduce, if they were allowed to live at all.

    While we still know that inbreeding isn’t a good idea, we can abandon the belief that we mustn’t inbreed because we’ll piss off the old guy in the sky who will then send plagues of retribution down upon us. Seriously. We can acknowledge now that inbreeding is not good because the theory of evolution has shown us the scientific causes for the results it produces, which has led us into finding the root causes of many diseases that are found in small, homogenous societies.

    Now, most superstitious thinking has stopped being productive and has become a threat itself because each group is clinging to their magical thinking out of fear for their survival and perceiving any other belief system as a threat. In this age of modern weaponry, clinging to superstitions as a basis for making decisions about war has become the greatest threat to our survival as a species.

    That’s why those of us already evolving, who are appalled at the thought of a world leader who would base his/her decisions on superstition, are in such conflict with those who believe evolution is a threat to their existence.

    Creationists really do believe that a wrathful Old Testament diety will strike us all down if we don’t quake before Him and mindlessly follow their superstitiously based rules. They cling to the belief that the world is in for a very bad end and only their blind obedience will save them.

    It’s evolution, baby.

  • More precisely, evolution theory should be deemed A cornerstone of biology.
    Not THE cornerstone.
    There’s germ theory, heredity, ecosystems, and maybe a few dozen others.
    Still, wishing to remove a cornerstone from the ediface of science leaves the structure horribly weakened.

  • This is so idiotic, reducing everything to one gotcha question that doesn’t look at the big picture. Ron Paul is a medical doctor; if your goal is to find the candidate who believes most in science, he is by far the leading candidate. To say that he doesn’t believe in biology is incredibly (deliberately, probably ) dense. Any number of widely respected scientists believe in God, any number also believe that man has arrived where he is NOT SOLELY by evolution but by a combination of factors, some of them fortuitous. Once again he makes the mistake of answering truthfully, and his answer is spun into a Luddite creationist attack. sO SILLY.

  • If they reject the overwhelming proof on modern biology, how will they deal with evidence regarding global warming?

    It is pretty weak for a presidential candidate not to believe in evolution. However, comparisons with the acceptance of global warming are not fair. Evolution is scientific fact almost on par with the theory of gravity. The theory of human-caused global warming may have the support of the majority, but it is not even close to a consensus, let alone a fact. There are many notable dissenters.

  • ” I thought it was a very inappropriate question, you know, for the presidency to be decided on a scientific matter.”

    It’s not appropriate to judge the candidates for the presidency on whether they use logic? Does he know that he doesn’t win with “Best Hair,” either?

  • “32.On December 23rd, 2007 at 2:50 pm, Javier A said:

    He also supports home schooling, the breeding ground of brain washed children of tv evangelists. Children being taught by semi illiterate parents that we are the direct descendents of Adam and Eve. Anyhow is a waste of bandwith, he doesn’t stand a chance.”

    LOL. ummmm when was the last time you inspected the quality of education brought to your children by the public education system. Just look at the facts and think for a second.

    This coming from some one who just finished with that “public babysitting system” you old people setup for us.

  • What concerns me is reading these posts from Paul supporters: for example the one from Jason who says he supports Paul 100% but would otherwise support Kucinich. Does Jason even have a clue what Paul stands for?

    He is one step away from an anarchist. He doesn’t believe in public schools, roads, infrastructure, wants to eliminate ALL govenment (including EPA and FDA) except for defense (which he wants to cut way back on). He wants to eliminate corporate and personal taxes (how he’ll fund the little government left puzzles me. This guy is 1001% OPPOSITE to Kucinich.

  • Wow, I was an ardent supporter of Ron Paul (campaigned for him, contributed a substantial amount of money etc) , not so much now.
    One of the underlying reasons I supported him so vehemently was because I believed him to be an rational, logical and knowledgeable man. I believed he was seeking to use his rational intellect to bring about positive change. I believed him when he talked about Austrian economics being the way forward. I believed him because of the reasons listed above. However, if he can be so very wrong about evolution how can I possibly trust him on proactive political programs?
    I will still vote for him but my bumper stickers/ fundraising efforts are no more.

  • Paul dodging the question at the TV debates but coming clean later on YouTube demonstrates a real lack of integrity.

  • I doubt that Ron Paul is “uncomfortable” with science. Pssst…Did you know that he’s a DOCTOR?

    This is an inane and irrelevant article.

  • Oh, and thanks for elevating the stupidest question of all the debates to the seeming liberal litmus test on who to vote for for President. Idiotic reasoning…

  • Trey said: “Micro-evolution (the adaptation of species to their environment) is a proven and observable phenomena. However, Macro-evolution (species turning into a whole new species) has never been proven and there is more evidence against this theory than there is evidence for it.”

    Trey, do you know what a rutabaga is? It’s a allotetraploid (38 chromosomes) which arose from hybiridization between a cabbage (18 chromosomes) and a turnip (20 chromosomes). Cabbages and turnips are good species, and ordinarily hybrids are sterile, having an uneven 19 chromosomes, which don’t line up properly during meiosis.. However, because of a rare accident during either mitosis or meiosis, the chromosome number in a hybrid, probably in a medieval garden, was doubled to 38 chromosomes, which is now an even number, and voila, a new species was born. Instantly. The cabbage-origin and turnip-origin chromosomes can be identified cytogenetically. The rutabaga is a good species, as hybrids between it and either parent produce sterile triploids. In fact, in the plant world, polyploidy is a common mode of speciation. Abundant evidence exists for the production of new genetically isolated species upon which natural selection can then operate. This whole micro- macro- evolution argument is a red herring.

  • I’m a science/medical writer who does not believe in “creationism” a la Christianity. That does NOT mean it is scientifically accurate to say evolution a la Darwin is not a theory . There are huge gaps in the evolutionary record and many, albeit so-called “fringe” scientists ( although I suspect there is more than a grain of proverbial truth there and some good if not convincing data), who point to other possible explanations for how we and other earthlings developed from point A to now.

    So while I think this will give RP detractors new ammo, I don’t think he’s saying evolution is BS – necessarily. We must be prepared with our comebacks .

    If I understand Dr. Paul correctly, he is for free speech. Free thought. A creationist ? An atheist? A pagan? Deny the holocaust? Rabid Zionist? WHATEVER a person thinks — unless you are crying ” fire” in a crowded theater where that yell may cause physical harm — you are free to blither it, state it, debate it. End of story. So if a person, for example, thinks abortion should be legal even up to the 9th month, although Dr. Paul is opposed to abortion, I believe he would defend your right to say that. Same with creationism vs. whatever.

    Bottom line : for anyone with a brain, including scientists, Dr. Paul is our best shot to restore this republic.

  • There are physicians and there are scientists. Most physicians are NOT scientists. They are, rather, consumers of science. Physicians are essentially mechanics of human bodies. Most mechanics who work on cars understand the gasoline engine. However, they are not mechanical engineers, or physicists. Same with physicians. In fact, many doctors are ANTI-SCIENCE, as they are into their own ideas about human bodies.

    So, merely stating that “Paul is a physician, so he is pro-science” is not true. I know many physicians who are anti-stem cell, anti-progress, Catholic nuts. And that is at my institution, a MAJOR midwest research university with the premier midwest med school.

  • Unbelieveable.

    So many arguing over evolution, and trying to inject “god” where “unknown” or “unproven” would suffice.

    What a waste.

    To still need and rely on a myth like “god” continues to demean us all and keep us relegated to the position of whimpering children.

  • And for the actual importance of Ron Paul, he would DESTROY science. That’s his basic plan. He will roll back the federal govenment to its “constitutional minimum”. That means that the NIH and associated institutes will be eliminated. This would destroy basic research. Every important scientific advance of the last 30 years has been done through basic and applied research as funded by NIH. Paul would eliminate that. He would eliminate the FDA, allowing unsafe drugs into the market, and allowing the drug companies to test on the consumer instead of on rabbits. He would eliminated the CDC, which would mean that epidemics would become rapidly nationwide and kill thousands.

    Liberatarianism is a fine philosophy for a town of 100. Above that, it is a philosophy that appeals to the weak-minded.

  • >> 47.
    On December 24th, 2007 at 1:35 am, rhys said:

    Okay, let’s talk about theories. Theories can never be verified, they can only be falsified. To say that you beleive a throey is true, is not a scientific or philosophical pronouncement, but a statement of faith – like claiming it’s true that Jesus died for our sins.


  • On December 24th, 2007 at 1:35 am, rhys said:

    Okay, let’s talk about theories. Theories can never be verified, they can only be falsified. To say that you beleive a throey is true, is not a scientific or philosophical pronouncement, but a statement of faith – like claiming it’s true that Jesus died for our sins

    Oh? Why? Your line of argument denudes both scientific theory and faith of all usable meaning. Nothing in science can be verified, by virtue of the definition of the scientific method. That is science’s most robust, beautiful feature — that there is always room for a better explanation IF YOU CAN BACK IT UP. To turn this into a a rationale for equating belief in a scientific theory with the belief in Jesus is either profoundly ignorant or profoundly disingenuous (i.e. an attempt to be tricky). Which are you?

    In order to be dubbed a scientific theory, an idea needs to meet a high standard of evidentiary support. In order to be an article of religious faith an idea needs to meet NO standard of evidentiary support. The idea simply needs to be written in a certain place, or expressed by a certain person.

    To take a noncontraversial theory, I believe the germ theory is true, because I have read of research in which this theory has been successfully tested. If I cared to, I could take a laboratory class and observe some of these results for myself. And another theory is always welcome to prove itself. Thus, my belief in the germ theory is NOT similar to a belief that Jesus died for our sins. My only reason to believe in Jesus is that many people have supported this idea. However, those folks have not offered any evidence other than their own, nonrepeatable testimonials. They have, at times, ordered me to believe as they do, on pain of eternal suffering.

  • Man-o-man, there is a LOT of stupid comments on this blog about science. It’s very clear that most people don’t really understand what a theory is.

    In science, a theory is a well-organized idea about a big concept. Theories do several things:
    1) organize the evidence
    2) provide an overall big picture
    3) make predictions that can be tested

    Evolution satisfies these principles. It organizes the evidence, both fossil (macro) and experimental (micro). DNA evidence is now HAMMERING the evidence home. It gives the big picture. If you are a biologist or physician who does not understand or believe in evolution, you understand nothing but a huge collection of unrelated facts. Finally, evolution makes predictions. 20 years ago, when DNA evaluation was becoming common, clever evolutionists began to examine the relations between “related” species and their DNA. Amazingly, DNA in most cases mirrors our understanding of species relationships. There are exceptions and surprises too.

    Most importantly, there are no competitors for evolution right now. That’s because of principle 3, prediction. Without the theory, there are no tests to perform. Intelligent design does 1) and 2), but not 3). You cannot say “the intelligent designer did such and so, so we can expect thus and so.” This provides the demarkation between a theory (testable, predictive) and a simple statement of faith (not predictive or testable).

    When scientists “believe in” a theory, it is not like believing in Jesus (as others have correctly stated). Rather, it is a shorthand for “evolution is the best theory right now to explain the biological evidence”. It is not faith, but a tested and evidence-based evalution of fact.

    If you do not believe in evolution, you are not a scientist. It’s just as simple as that.

  • My commments and those of liberalskeptic.com are both making the same points.

    But it just comes down to a simple point.

    Scientists believe in evolution. If you do not believe in evolution, you are not a scientist

  • Evolution is a theory. Which very simply means it has not been ‘proven.’ To embrace a theory as truth takes a lot of ‘faith.’ Especially when there is absolutely no evidence to prove it. Darwin, in his book, Origin of the Species, raised doubts to his own theory by pointing out that the ‘eye’ was too complicated to have ‘evolved” and that it could not have existed as a “part” but had to have existed in its entirety. Any intelligent person that studies evolution realizes that it exists only as a flimsy substitute for those who do not want to answer to a higher power.

  • “Evolution is a theory. Which very simply means it has not been ‘proven.’ To embrace a theory as truth takes a lot of ‘faith.’ Especially when there is absolutely no evidence to prove it.”

    That’s not what theory means. Theory is a NOT a fancy term for guess.

  • “Any intelligent person that studies evolution realizes that it exists only as a flimsy substitute for those who do not want to answer to a higher power.”

    Ah. That’s the inherent contradiction. If you believe in a higher power, you are not an intelligent person. So, your statement is inherently self-contradictory.

    Science, the arena of evaluation of evidence, leads you to draw conclusions about data. Religion, the arena of beliefs about the existence of cosmic mushrooms, leads you to draw conclusions about mushroomicity and its discontents. If you are confused about the two, you are not particularly intelligent.

  • “He probably doesn’t think we descended from monkeys”

    evolution does not state that humans descended from monkeys. We have a common ancestor, but that ancestor was not necessarily a “monkey”.

  • POed Lib,

    I really appreciate your concise, understandable explication of “theory” with respect to evolution and intelligent design. Well done. I intend to save it as a handy resource to draw on in future discussions.

    Not that you asked for my advice, but I’ll just add, too, that I notice a little testiness in some of your comments. I’m all for venting now and then; it’s only human and healthy–and sometimes it even works to get people’s attention and make them think. But realize that more generally it can get in the way of your message, so to the extent you want to reach people and bring them around to your way of thinking, too much venting is self-defeating.

  • Steve (#82) said:

    evolution does not state that humans descended from monkeys. We have a common ancestor, but that ancestor was not necessarily a “monkey”.

    Well, for all intents and purposes we are monkeys, in the sense that we are apes, and share over 99% of our genes with Chimps, for example.

    Heck, that difference is smaller than the difference in biomass between men and women. (on acount of the size of the male Y chromosome.)

    🙂

  • This thread is a perfect example of why I’m no longer a democrat. Does Ron Paul believe in evolution? Why should anyone even care? Do Hillary and Barak believe in a peaceful foreign policy or in neverending foreign wars? Do they believe in constitutional liberty or the “Patriot” and Military Commisions acts? Are they advocating what they truly believe or are they saying what their financial bakers in the military industrial complex tell them to say? Of course, they have no choice but to go after the big money since, unlike Ron Paul’s supporters, few of you are willing to give them a dime. And with good reason. They’re not worth a dime. Anybody can vote for the patriot act. No need to pay money for that.

    Truly, you are all worrying about your beards while your heads are being placed on the chopping block.

    Evolution? Give me a break

  • I doubt there is a world leader outside the United States and middle east theocracies who don’t accept evolution as the good science it is. If Paul has issues with something as cut and dry as evolution how will he ever be able to appropriately weigh the science of much more difficult questions like climate change?

    The “this is a personal decision” argument is silly. The man was a trained scientist who is rejecting that same training when he didn’t like where it was leading. No progressive should be supporting Paul after hearing this. Rationality should be the basis of our decision making, not magical thinking.

  • Lysander (#85),

    Moving one’s head from one chopping block to the other is no better fate.

    This question of evolution may not have direct policy impact, but it does reveal deep character that simple lists of policies do not reveal. Both are important.

  • Daniel, #87

    We all have to make our choices about what is important in a candidate. To me, a candidate who believes in…or at least will make no effort to oppose…constant military intervention, consistant attacks on personal liberty, nuclear preemptive strike as an “option on the table” ….. but on the plus side believes in evolution, really isn’t worth a glass of warm spit. I understand others may disagree and find a candidate’s personal view on evolution far more important than war vs peace and freedom vs the patriot act.

    Thanx, but I’ll take my chances on the other chopping block.

    Still, the fact that the carpetbagger, as well as crooks and liars and digby, blogs I used to enjoy, spend so much time on a candidate who “can’t win” is a positive sign as none of you seem too worried about Duncan Hunter’s views on evolution.

  • Cynthia wrote:”Evolution is a theory. Which very simply means it has not been ‘proven.’ To embrace a theory as truth takes a lot of ‘faith.’ Especially when there is absolutely no evidence to prove it. Darwin, in his book, Origin of the Species, raised doubts to his own theory by pointing out that the ‘eye’ was too complicated to have ‘evolved” and that it could not have existed as a “part” but had to have existed in its entirety. Any intelligent person that studies evolution realizes that it exists only as a flimsy substitute for those who do not want to answer to a higher power.”

    Scientific theories can’t be proven, only falsified. General Relativity, Qunatum Mechanics etc., all “unproven”. Scientific theories are testable propositions about the way nature works.

    Do you take it that your computer works because of faith? Or does it work because Quantum Mechanics, the unproven theory that explains the behavior of semi-conductors (and many other things as well) has enabled engineers to exploit semi-conductors which form the backbone of our technology?

    And obviously, you haven’t read OOS, cuz if you did you’d know that after the statement of Dariwn’s that you quoted above he went ahead in the next paragraph and started to give an explanation for the evolution of the eye. One only wonders why creationists tell such obvious lies?

    Will you apologize for your lies?

    “Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound. (Darwin 1872, 143-144)”

  • Lysander (#88),

    I understand the examples in your first paragraph, and that would make the decision easy and temptingly in favour of RP. The “chopping block” aspect of RP is his idea to remove the income tax and possibly increase sales tax (which is the least progressive in terms of taxation), to deregulate everything, etc etc.

  • Daniel @ # 90,

    Those are all reasonable points of debate, but the thread seemed to focus on the munutiae of evolutionary theory, leading me to believe that many posters considered it a more important criterion for judging a candidate than his/her position on war and civil liberty.

    That said, Ron Paul can’t eliminate the income tax without congress. But he CAN end the war in Iraq, avoid other wars and save lives as well as hundreds of billions spent on an overseas empire. Since he will also restore consitutional liberty, we will be free to argue in 2012 or 2016 what to do with all the money saved.

    I encourage everyone to think carefully about their priorities in this matter. Do not dismiss Ron Paul just because he is a republican. Like many here, I’ve never voted for a republican before (and certainly wont vote for any rep besides Paul), but recently switched affiliation to vote for Paul in the Nevada caucus (Jan 19)

    Good luck to all

  • The FACT that evolution occurs has as much evidence as the FACT that gravity occurs. So-called “macroevolution” is what happens when “microevolution” keeps happening over time, and there is overwhelming evidence for this. It is dangerous to have a world leader who is so out of touch with reality as to say that evolution is “just a theory.”

  • “Those are all reasonable points of debate, but the thread seemed to focus on the munutiae of evolutionary theory, leading me to believe that many posters considered it a more important criterion for judging a candidate than his/her position on war and civil liberty.Those are all reasonable points of debate, but the thread seemed to focus on the munutiae of evolutionary theory, leading me to believe that many posters considered it a more important criterion for judging a candidate than his/her position on war and civil liberty.”

    Ron Paul is a wack. A certifiable nutjob. He’s purportedly a physician, but does not believe in evolution. That makes him a weak-minded quack. Richardson or Dodd will end the war immediately, plus will be Dems with a Dem Congress, and will get cooperation.

    If Ron Paul is ever elected, which is very unlikely, it would be the most ridiculous failure of any administration ever. His ideas are wacky, he has no idea how much terrible disruption they would cause, and the successful execution of them would make the US a terrible place to live. Most of his supporters are naive dummies who have never considered the actual results of successful Ron Paul programs.

    1 simple example: Like most liberatarians, he hates the FDA. That industry monitors drugs. Before the FDA, there was thalidomide, which caused millions of birth defects. If Ron Paul eliminates the FDA we are back to the situation where the consumer is the test for new drugs.

  • To turn this into a a rationale for equating belief in a scientific theory with the belief in Jesus is either profoundly ignorant or profoundly disingenuous (i.e. an attempt to be tricky). Which are you?

    In order to be dubbed a scientific theory, an idea needs to meet a high standard of evidentiary support. In order to be an article of religious faith an idea needs to meet NO standard of evidentiary support. The idea simply needs to be written in a certain place, or expressed by a certain person.”

    I am tricky if you must know. And for my next trick I will extend the gap between evidence and knowldege to a degree that no amount of fist pounding can usher you across.

    Regardless of the standard of evidentiary support, the fact remains that no degree of empirical evidence can EVER amount to proof of a proper scientific theory. So to claim that the jump between evidence and proof is justified in the case of scientific theory and not theological theory is to misunderstand the difference between proof and evidentiary support, which is not, as you would claim, the same as misunderstanding the difference between a high standard and no standard, but instead stems from the difference in meaning between scientific/theologic theory and scientific/theologic proof.

    You believe that either the nature or degree of evidentiary support can move you from theory to fact, but that is pure dogmatism, no different from from the dogmatism that supposedly crosses the gap from mystical theory to religious fact. Scientific theories are not fact, and no amount of evidentiary support can ever prove a scientific theory! To argue anything else is to engage on a rollercoaster of semantic nonsense where anything can mean anything else.

    Basically, to believe in any theory, religious or scientific, is an act of faith from which no amount of evidence, empirical or otherwise, may absolve you.

    Paul was being scientific here, it just sounds religious because the unwashed masses are not familiar with the philosophical theories of empiricism. Remember, Paul is a doctor and a philosopher.

  • To those who suggest that evolution is “just one issue” and that science and politics shouldn’t mix, note that science is “the study of the physical and natural world and phenomena, especially by using systematic observation and experiment.” Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition. Seems that might be sorta useful in understanding and analyzing . . . oh, pretty much the lion’s share of issues confronting a President.

    We need our leaders to deal with reality based on our knowledge of reality through evidence and rational thought and not to brush aside such knowledge in favor of some dogma grounded in faith. If we select leaders who pander to the “dogma voters” among us, we’re in for serious trouble. Oh wait! That would be like the trouble we’re in right now.

  • “Ron Paul is a wack. A certifiable nutjob. He’s purportedly a physician, but does not believe in evolution. That makes him a weak-minded quack. Richardson or Dodd will end the war immediately, plus will be Dems with a Dem Congress, and will get cooperation.”

    I see you are so POed that rational debate is beyond you and you prefer to insult another candidate and his supporters.

    Bear in mind that Dodd voted FOR the Iraq war and FOR the Patriot act. Richardson was not in congress at the time, so I have no idea how he would have voted. I prefer a candidate that got it right the first time and voted against those things at a time when there was tremendous pressure to vote yes.

  • “1 simple example: Like most liberatarians, he hates the FDA. That industry monitors drugs. Before the FDA, there was thalidomide, which caused millions of birth defects. If Ron Paul eliminates the FDA we are back to the situation where the consumer is the test for new drugs.”

    Actually I think the FDA, in the early days, was all the stood between us and the thalidomide tragedy that commonly befell European women and their children in the 1950s. The FDA resisted pressure and insisted on doing its job.

    THAT is a great reason we need a strong federal government. Because “the market” is NEVER going to spontaneously do the right thing. Ever.

    Google Thomas Quasthof to get an idea of what we’d be seeing more of, should the libertarians get their way. Don’t get me wrong, this renowned opera singer has apparently led a life that’s far from tragic and I treasure ever recording of his that I own. But he doesn’t get cast in operas that often because it can be difficult for stage directors to work around his very short legs, and lack of arms.

    It’s worth it, though, right? Because at least the drug companies in 1950s Germany had all this unfettered freedom? Now, unfortunately, the government is probably all into their business.

    Now to get back to the issue of science and religion, one frequently hears religious nutcases as well as goodhearted but stumped religious people, sputtering about how physically challenged people are put here to teach us very special lessons, etc. Nicely skirting our collective responsibility to do what we can to ensure that all our kids are born with working arms and legs. Using tools such as …. SCIENCE?

    But really the main problem with religion is that true believers in some sects have certain teachings that a) carry profound foreign policy implications (google “Rapture”) or b) actively seek to undermine MY American freedoms by installing a theocratic regime. (Google “Dominionism” if you think I’m being paranoid)

    I prefer to know a candidate’s religious background if there is any hint that said background will influence the candidate’s actions in office. That’s already information we need. And if a candidate like Paul or Huckabee puts faith out there was a selling point, he’s opening the door to be scrutinized within an inch of his holy life, and rightly so.

    I believe the issue with Paul is whether he would act on his religious beliefs or not. And he has a history of doing so, by sponsoring abortion bans and the like. The next issue is whether his achievable anti-war objectives make him the best candidate. My answer, though I find him personally likable, is NO. Because options exist for us to elect a smart foreign policy guy who has already given up magical thinking.

  • When a “science” question becomes such a hot topic that one political party decides to make it an “issue” topic, we fall back into politics as usual. This is such an issue and to shamelessly use it as a “real issue” is ridiculous. This has nothing to do with “science” and everything to do with religion. Moreover, who gives a damn? To state that, because a candidate does not necessarily subscribe to Mr. Darwin’s theory, that he/she rejects science in general is flawed in it’s very inception. No matter how much fluff or intelligent journalist-speak one uses in an op-ed argument, the argument remains as flawed as it was after the first word was penned. Until we start making real, strong and relevant arguments and stop throwing up red herrings they will continue to win.

  • I’m sure all the so-called liberals will feel smug and self-satisfied that they have remained doctrinaire and pure on the issues of abortion and evolution as we march in line to the Gulag. Ron Paul rejects totalitarianism, even regarding the theory of evolution. Ron Paul is the only candidate taking on a corrupt establishment in the hopes of reintstalling the constitution. But too many of our liberal friends would rather wallow in pettiness, as they miss the forest for the trees. The bumper-sticker slogan of the Paul campaign is “Freedom is popular” — we’ll soon see how popular, or if servitude will win the day.

  • Ah, I see that some are still confused about DOCTORS and SCIENTISTS. Some doctors are scientists. Very very few fall into that group. Most doctors are not scientists. Most doctors are CONSUMERS of science, not CREATORS or DOERS of science.

    It’s pretty clear that Ron Paul knows as much about science as I know about Texas, and that would be nothing. Scientists understand the scientific method, and keep science and religion separated.

    Most physicians are mechanics of the human body. They did not do the science to understand the body, just as car mechanics do not do the science behind the internal combustion engine. Physicians can change the piston rings without knowing anything about why piston rings are important, or having anything to do with the furthering of knowledge of piston rings.

    That’s Ron Paul. By stating that he does not believe in evolution, he basically is stating that he is not a scientist nor of a scientific bent. he is a mechanic, not a scientist.

    More than that, he’s a wack.

  • “Ron Paul rejects totalitarianism, even regarding the theory of evolution. Ron Paul is the only candidate taking on a corrupt establishment in the hopes of reintstalling the constitution. But too many of our liberal friends would rather wallow in pettiness, as they miss the forest for the trees. The bumper-sticker slogan of the Paul campaign is “Freedom is popular” — we’ll soon see how popular, or if servitude will win the day.”

    But Ron Paul is a Repukeliscum. The Repukeliscum Party is the party of FISA, the Party of the Patriot act, the party of fascism.

    It really does not matter what Ron Paul believes in. He is a Repukeliscum, and he would continue the same policies as Bush. He would deepen fascism and fascist big government. He would continue the commingling of government and big business, the essense and hallmark of fascism.

    As Sinclair Lewis said “When fascism comes to American, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” Ron Paul is carrying that cross, and he is just as much a fascist as Romney or Huckabilly.

    Those who are confused by politics think that the individual sets the tone. Not true. It is the group. Today, Paul is a candidate of the Repukeliscum Party, the party of torture, the party of Guantanemo Bay and the American Gulag, the party of fascism. We don’t need a fascist like Ron Paul.

  • “Ron Paul rejects totalitarianism, even regarding the theory of evolution”

    Science is not a democracy. nature cares not one whit what your ideology is and it doesn’t solicit votes.

  • “Ron Paul rejects totalitarianism, even regarding the theory of evolution”

    “Science is not a democracy. nature cares not one whit what your ideology is and it doesn’t solicit votes.”

    In the Soviet Union, the political commissar determined the truth of all statements and situations. If the political commissar said that black was white, black WAS white for the Soviets.

    Now the Repukeliscum Party has re-invented this terrible notion that the most important thing about any situation is the political component. Ron Paul has rejected truth in favor of political correctness, and political correctness in the service of fascist Christian talibanowacks.

    Christian fascists determining truth is no more acceptable than Muslim fascists determining truth. In America, truth stands on its own.

    Evolution is truth. Christian wack bible garbage is not.

  • rhys,

    You’re essentially claiming that all assertions are of equal merit.

    I never claimed that evidentiary support amounted to turning theory into fact. I assert that believing in a scientific theory is a sensible position while aligning myself with a religious position is not (assuming that my goal in committing to a belief is one that science addresses). For instance, if I have an infection, I “believe” that a course of antibiotics will hasten my cure, provided I act soon enough, etc. If you want to attribute that belief to my “faith” that microbiology follows a predictable pattern, feel free to disingenuously use that word. But there is no relationship between my conclusion and someone else’s conclusion that an exorcism is the proper course of action. (Unless they’re talking about known issues such as the placebo effect.) Because my belief is based on repeatable evidence — and is subject to revision — while the exorcist’s belief is based only on remarks of other people. And rather than being subject to revision (a good thing) the SOP for many religious folk is to try to erase the contradictory evidence because their core belief may not be challenged.

    Long story short: saying evolution is “just a theory” is impossible to take in a good light.

  • I’m more concerned with my money going extinct or my government evolving into a full blown fascist police state than I am about whether Ron Paul thinks we came from monkeys or not. Honestly, this whole discussion seems a bit tertiary in terms of other pressing matters facing our nation. We are killing 100’s of thousands of innocent people in Iraq and talking about nuking Iran pre-emptively. The rest of the globe is slowly backing out of our dollar and many financial analysts are fearing a depression might actually occur if things don’t play out as well as they hope. These are the things that Ron Paul has a feasible plan to fix. I don’t really care WHAT he believes in how we got here. His voting record proves that he won’t press his believe system on us anyways so it’s really a non-issue to me.

  • Yup…if someone was dying on the ground, Dr. Ron Paul would pray to the all mighy Jesus to help…he wouldn’t use his vast medical training or knowledge of biology to save the sick.
    Stop infering that Dr. Paul is a Jesus freak – it’s simply not true. His opinion on religion is moot, and he says so himself…

  • To anyone remotely suggesting that a Presidential candidate’s views on SCIENCE are not important (or tertiary) are absolutely fooling themselves.

    Heard of China? Or better yet, the rest of the world?

    A Presidential candidate who would disavow a scientific Theory (CAPITAL T!) which has yet to be proven false (which makes it more “true” than not, because all predictions as yet have been proven to be true!) and has yielded much information that Genetics and Molecular biology can use to all work in unison…is NUTS.

    Let me make that clear…evolution…IS TRUE. We see it occurring; we know it exists. What is in question is the “missing fossils” that comprise “Macroevolution.” But…ahem, if we know evolution occurs over a few generations, what happens when that occurs over thousands of generations? Why, MACROevolution! Duh! As of right now, the Theory of Evolution has met predictions with success…see the Telomeres mentioned in the video below.

    Especially when that person is a Doctor who should have a clear and undeniable understanding of the meaning of Theory in the scientific community. Disgusting!

    A President’s interests and views on Evolution will dictate future decisions which may/may not involve the question of Evolution, or any related issues surrounding Evolution. Al Gore pushed the Internet (yes, that’s true…and he never said he invented it)…he helped push funds forward for the proliferation of it…That’s an example of if a President is interested in science or not.

    Tell you what, you may think it’s ok to have a guy who doesn’t value science over party (because he’s either be intentionally misleading, or is dumb as f*ck), but when China comes around and kicks our collective asses in science related fields because our PRESIDENT doesn’t VALUE science, I hope you’ll be happy then….

    Laughing stock of the world is what we’d be…

    I value other people’s opinions on God, etc…but when “Christians” are willing to lie, and commit perjury because they think the means justify the ends, I’m reminded that the economy, health care, war, all of these come in a distant second to someone who’s biggest concern is “heavan or hell.”

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html#ch01

  • …and oh yea, when people use the term “liberal” and “democrats” in a shameful way, I think it’s important who used the most ridiculous and untrue smears, who stated “If you’re not with us, you’re against us” and which group is calling the other group TRAITORS COWARDS and ANTI-AMERICAN.

    THAT is an outrage and playing loose with strong words, all the while labeling teachers, professors, doctors, veterans, and 50% of Americans offensive names that does the United States no good at all.

  • As a PhD in Genetics, I have to admit, I do not think evolution is occuring in American society today. There’s alot of pandering and posturing above (much of which is too painful to read). However, I LOVE the fact the people are actually ENGAGED. Please, everyone pat yourselves on the back for actually using your brains. No one who has posted here is the problem, it is the 95+% of the population that has the IQ of a reptile that we have to worry about. Don’t forget, Ron Paul is not the problem here – at least he has principle. No, Bush is our president and Huckabee is a presidential candidate. If that isn’t proof against evolution, I don’t know what is.

  • Here is a little Civics 101 quiz. Name the document containing the following phrase: “. . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. “ Got that? Now, don’t you think that also applies to beetle-browed, Bible-thumping troglodytes? Any attempt to disqualify someone from public office because of his religious beliefs is contrary to the constitution. No doubt you are thinking, “this is not a religious test being applied here; it’s a scientific test.” Well, if that’s the case, then why does one have to believe in it?

  • I knew immediately that there were more than just the three that raised their hands. Its the kind of question they wouldnt want to answer, because they know its either going to make them look like idiots or its going to turn off the religious right base.

    Each would have to been asked specifically if they believe man evolved from primates. Ill bet you that most would say “no”, either because they dont or becuase they could never get nominated in their party if they said they did.

  • You folks are so addicted to government funding of scientific research it’s disgusting — absolutely pathetic. Tell me, what is your area of government-funded research? Developing new methods of torture? New methods of monitoring and tracking the activities of ordinary people? Perhaps new methods of waging psychological warfare against the populace? Without intending any offense to any ladies who might be posting here, you guys all need to grow a pair of balls and learn to stand on your own two feet like adult men. Stop acting like a bunch of dope addicts living on the dole. Science would be much better off WITHOUT government funding.

  • it is really sad that any of the candidates reject evolution. what is the country coming to. if they maintain such ridiculous beliefs, are they capable of governing. i shudder to think that we will be led by such ignoramuses

  • The limit of both science and religion:

    Something has either always existed, or something came from nothing. Think about that, and see if you can come up with any other possible origin of the universe. We are all living in a miracle.

    I don’t expect anyone to be an expert on everything. Ron Paul probably doesn’t think that debating the origins of the universe should be high on his priority list, and I tend to agree with him. Being a creationist is his personal right, and most importantly, he defends your right to disagree with him. I am more interested in how he interprets evidence regarding presidental issues such as foreign policy (military, treaties, and trade), judicial and other official appointments, budget choices, and limits on executive power.

    I am a fan of Al Gore as well, so you can imagine that I am concerned about Ron Paul’s views on the environment and global warming. If you want to attack him on ignoring scientific evidence on an issue that really matters, maybe you should start there.

  • Do you know what Ron Paul says in the part of the quotation you’ve cut and replaced with “…”. In the version I’ve seen on the web, he actually says, “And I, um, I think it’s a theory, theory of evolution, and I don’t accept it, you know, as a theory, but I think-” followed by an obvious edit. It’s got me curious why the people wanting to spread the truth about this don’t want to spread the whole truth.

  • While the answer was less than graceful, I’d be willing to bet Dr. Paul’s qualm is with the theory of evolution’s inability to address the origin of life itself:

    “If I were a creationist, I would cease attacking the theory of evolution-which is so well supported by the fossil record-and focus instead on the origin of life. This is by far the weakest strut of the chassis of modern biology. The origin of life is a science writer’s dream. It abounds with exotic scientists and exotic theories, which are never entirely abandoned or accepted, but merely go in and out of fashion.” (Horgan, John [Senior Writer, Scientific American], “The End of Science: Facing the Limits of Knowledge in the Twilight of the Scientific Age,” [1996], Little, Brown & Co: London, 1997, p138)

  • Jimmy Carter had a science and mathematics background.
    Maybe you would like some one like him to be President?

  • #118: While the answer was less than graceful, I’d be willing to bet Dr. Paul’s qualm is with the theory of evolution’s inability to address the origin of life itself:

    I don’t know what Ron Paul actually believes and the short quote in the article doesn’t really tell us much. A huge percentage of the people who support him believe in some form of creationism and are very put off by anyone suggesting that science (aka evolution) proves their belief to be wrong. The “it’s only a theory” response could just be his way of trying not to alienate his supporters. It’s hard to know what he actually believes from that short response.

    The underlying problem at work here is the simple fact that a majority (aka >50%) of the people in the US believe in God and some form of creationism. I don’t happen to be one of them. However, if you want to get elected President, you have to be accepted by the majority and that means not making statements that imply you are against one of your constituents strongest and most deeply held beliefs (their religion).

    The debate really isn’t about Evolution being right or wrong. The debate is about Religion being right or wrong. The only reason evolution is attacked is because evolution, and all it stands for (science) is an attack on faith based beliefs. No matter how much you try to justify believing in some form of both, it ultimately fails. They are incompatible belief systems. Either truth comes from facts (science), or truth comes from faith (aka what people just “known” is right).

    The issue addresses what people see as the real foundation of truth. Do you believe all truth comes from objective facts, or do you believe that truth is what you believe, and that objective facts are just a tool we sometime use to help verify and adjust our beliefs?

    I’m a strong rationalist and believe that all truth comes from objective facts. I reject religion as not being fact based. I believe in the theory of evolution and even though there is very little evidence about how what we call “life” started on the earth, I have no problem with assuming it evolved because as weak as the evidence is, it’s still a million times stronger than the “evidence” taught in Sunday schools.

    However, I am not the “norm” in America. I’m the exception. The majority of people in the US are faith based thinkers. They don’t need facts to “know” what is right. They follow their gut, their instincts, and their emotions, and don’t feel the need to justify with facts and reason the many things they know to be right – which includes God, Country, and Family. When times get tough, they return to their foundational beliefs, and elect a fool like Bush – a strong right vs wrong faith based thinker. Whatever he believes is right, is right, and anyone who doesn’t believe the same thing is just wrong. Facts have nothing to do with it.

    Humans are not naturally rationalists. We have to be trained to become a rationalist. We are emotion machines which are guided by our instincts. It takes a lot of training to become a rationalist and to trust facts over our instincts. Science didn’t come naturally for us. It’s been a struggle to accept it, and whenever science seems to tell us something that conflicts with what we believe to be true, almost everyone chooses their belief, over what the facts are telling us – we assume we just don’t have all the facts right instead of assuming our strong belief is wrong.

    Rationalistes however don’t tend to make good leaders. Leaders need to be decisive decision makers. Rationalists tend to believe there is never a right answer, only complex options that need more study. You can’t be a good leader if you hesitate to make decisions because you want to gather more facts. You can’t convince people to follow you unless you create the impression you know the right answer without having to waste time gathering more facts. Being a rationalist, and being a leader, is many times incompatible.

    Bush is a fool, but he’s also a good leader. I just don’t happen to like where he has led us. So, it’s time to pick a new leader that will take us in a different direction.

    Though I reject religious beliefs because they are not fact based, I don’t fully reject religion itself because it has a purpose. It’s no accident that the world is so full of religion. Religion is an important social tool for binding people together into a society. It makes societies stronger, and that is why it survives. Religious beliefs survive because they help societies to survive. It causes people to work together when they would otherwise tend to be more selfish – working only for their own good.

    Even though religions are nothing more than a big bag of lies that evolved because of their survival value, they are still an important cornerstone in what holds American society together. I’d like to see the lies replaced with truths, but how do you hold society together without the lies? How do you get 300 million people to give up the lies that they have all been trained to believe are truths? What do you give them as a replacement that continues to motivate them to be good members of society instead of being selfish bastards? Freedom, democracy, and capitalists (other cornerstones of American society) don’t train us to work together and help one another, they do just the opposite. They train us us to be self-serving powerful individuals instead of being a powerful society. They encourage us to work for ourselves instead of working together. Even though I’m against religion because it is nothing more than a bag of lies, I’m not so quick to encourage its removal from society because I’ve not yet seen a better way to get humans to work together and help one another.

    It’s very unlikely I will vote for Ron Paul, but a leader that continues to support the mass delusion of religion is not clearly bad for America. I’d be more worried about a president that tried to remove religion from the US than one that believed in God.

    What I want to see, is a strong leader who is smart enough to know that religion is a lie, and evolution is the truth, but wise enough to know that this lie is an important part of society that needs to be dealt with very carefully.

  • Ron Paul said there wasn’t enough proof on either side. Scientists agree with this, hence the term theory attached to the word evolution. We have great research on one side coupled without any concrete facts and then the other side has great faith coupled without any concrete facts. If it boils down to choosing research or faith, I choose research, but that doesn’t change what we know – there isn’t enough proof on either side. Ron Paul spoke the truth and apparently that wasn’t even good enough for you…

    I know this is going to sound absurd…but there are actually very intelligent minds that do not believe in evolution. There is conflicting information on the side of evolution and many inventions that at one time “proved” evolution’s case, have later been deemed inaccurate and giving bogus readings (carbon dating, to name one). Please don’t discount someone just b/c they view something differently than you…

  • Possibly the worst argument I’ve ever heard:

    “And like it or not, Isaac Newton believed in alchemy. Who are we do completely disregard the views of one of the greatest scientists of all-time?”

    We are people who live in the 21st Century! In the time before Newton there were brilliant scientists who didn’t have any knowledge of gravity- that doesn’t make them any less brilliant.

    We are talking about a college educated person here living in 2008 and claiming to have the rationality to be able to run the most powerful country in the world? It is inexcusable for him not to accept evolution, just as it is inexcusable for him to believe in alchemy.

  • “Ron Paul said there wasn’t enough proof on either side. Scientists agree with this, hence the term theory attached to the word evolution.”

    That is a lie. You are confusing (deliberately or not) the use of “theory” in everyday terms with it in a scientific context. Gravity is still spoken of as a theory scientifically speaking, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t universally accepted. If you don’t believe me ring up a local university professor and ask. The argument ID supporters use that evolution is “just a theory” is one of the most laughable they have, but they continue to use and popularise it.

  • To Mario Javier post 23. This is going to be a hard one for you to follow.

    Just google Theory of Rlativity errors.

    With the errors, it remains theory, not fact

  • To comment No. 5

    Nice try, but you are W-R-O-N-G.

    In science, a theory has a mathematical and logical explanation and can be tested through empirical observation and experimentation. In science, theory and fact are not necessarily a contradicition.

    You’re trying to pass common usage of the word “theory”, in which its meaning can be interpreted as conjecture, a hypothetical or something unproven, for its scientific use. Alas, you succeed ony in coming accross as a willfully ignorant or intellectually dishonest person.

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