Zogby Interactive and the ‘I Knew It’ poll

Most political observers know to stop reading when they see the phrase, “According to a poll from Zogby Interactive…” and yet, yesterday, I couldn’t believe the commotion caused by a poll that obviously didn’t make any sense.

About 24 hours ago, Zogby Interactive released a national poll showing John Edwards and Barack Obama leading each of the top five Republican presidential hopefuls in a hypothetical general-election match-up. The same poll, however, showed Hillary Clinton trailing the same five candidates (even Romney and Huckabee, who usually fare poorly due to low national name recognition). Reuters ran this report:

Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton trails five top Republican presidential contenders in general election match-ups, a drop in support from this summer, according to a poll released on Monday.

Clinton’s top Democratic rivals, Barack Obama and John Edwards, still lead Republicans in hypothetical match-ups ahead of the November 4, 2008, presidential election, the survey by Zogby Interactive showed.

As it turns out, this was just the tip of the iceberg. Blogs jumped on the poll results, as did all of the cable news networks.

Around the same time, Gallup released a similar poll, gauging the results of match-ups of the top two Dems against the top four Republicans. These results were in line with reality — Dems up, GOP down.

Take a wild guess which of these two polls sparked a mini media frenzy.

Greg Sargent explains:

The Zogby one is an online poll, a notoriously unreliable method, while the Gallup one is a telephone poll. And, as Charles Franklin of Pollster.com observed yesterday, the Zogby poll is completely out of sync with multiple other national polls finding Hillary with a lead over the GOP candidates. The Zogby poll actually found that Mike Huckabee is leading Hillary in a national matchup. The Gallup findings were in line with most other surveys. […]

The Zogby survey was covered repeatedly on CNN, earned coverage from MSNBC, Fox News, and Reuters and was covered by multiple other smaller outlets.

By contrast, I can’t find a single example of any reporter or commentator on the major networks or news outlets referring to the Gallup poll at all, with the lone exception of UPI. While the Zogby poll was mentioned by multiple reporters and pundits, the only mentions the Gallup poll got on TV were from Hillary advisers who had to bring it up themselves on the air in order to inject it into the conversation.

Of course, every political reporter, editor, and producer in the country knew that Zogby Interactive results were unreliable, but they trumpeted the results anyway.

There’s probably more than one explanation of this, but I suspect the Zogby Interactive data was what I think of as an IKI Poll — “I knew it” poll.

For a couple of years now, when rumors that Hillary Clinton would run first emerged (say, around 2006), the conventional wisdom was that she would struggle in a general-election campaign. Sure, she could win in the primaries, but she would fare poorly against a Republican nominee.

And ever since, all the data has shown otherwise. Indeed, all year long, poll after poll showed Clinton leading the GOP field in hypothetical match-ups. The predictions weren’t playing out, at least not yet.

And then along comes the Zogby Interactive poll, which, wouldn’t you know it, offered numbers that were exactly in line with what the chattering class has expected for a year. “A ha!” said reports. “I knew it!”

The media wanted a poll that confirmed pre-existing suspicions. In this case, the fact that the results didn’t make any sense was apparently not much of a concern.

Wouldn’t responsible journalism require news outlets to a) note why professional pollsters discount Zogby Interactive data; and b) also highlight the Gallup numbers with equal enthusiasm?

Update: From Hillary Hub: “As of about 9AM, the Zogby poll was covered on TV news 15 times and the Gallup poll was mentioned twice – by the Hillary campaign’s Mark Penn and Ann Lewis.”

I’m glad that you hit on this, CB. It’s important in a democracy to scrutinize polling methodologies that do not rely exclusively on landline telephones.

I couldn’t imagine the apoplexy of the right and left wing authoritarians if Ron Paul’s name had been included in the Zogby Interactive poll.

  • Corporate news follows the rule of “news by exception.” Nothing is newsworthy if it follows well-recognized, reality-based facts. It’s the stuff that runs contrary to what would be considered reality that makes the news.

  • man, tweety and howard fineman were all over this yesterday like stink on citigroup. can’t possibly imagine why … other than it provided an opportunity to bash hillary and yammer on about all her negatives and how people do not trust her…

    it was interesting to see mark penn on scarborough this morning; when joe was really pimping these results, penn totally knocked it back with this argument about methodology. scarborough promised to follow up on it with someone from zogby. we’ll see.

  • Remind me which of the polls acceptable to political observers had Kerry on top of Bush in 2004?

    It’s important in a democracy to scrutinize polling methodologies that do not rely exclusively on landline telephones. -JKap

    Well, we obviously can’t rely on polls of more than nine thousand people online voluntarily! Only landline phone owners who are willing to forgo dinner whatever they were watching on television count! And at that, maybe only three hundred or five hundred polled. Can’t be bothered with a bigger sample. That’s reliability, baby! Oh yeah!

  • Responsible journalism? On what planet? Most of the media outlets wouldn’t know responsible journalism if it jumped up and clunked them over the head.

    I’m just so tired of being assumed to be so devoid of intelligence and the ability to reason that I should rely on the media to cherry-pick its way through the available information and then concoct a story for me so that I can know what it is I should be thinking and feeling.

    I’m tired of the talking heads acting as though only they have the skills and abilities necessary to determine what is news and what is not – I don’t need to have my head rhetorically patted a couple times a day by people who couldn’t hold a candle to half the people I encounter on this site or any of a dozen others whose owners and commenters have a real commitment to information and fact.

    Zogby is just another insult to our intelligence.

  • That poll may be inaccurate or not, but I’d say the low numbers for Hillary’s “likability” are not an illusion. Her refusal to apologize for her role in the Iraq disaster is no illusion.

    According to the latest Gallup poll, 50 percent of the country has an unfavorable view of Sen. Clinton. Neither John Kerry nor Al Gore achieved such a high negative rating in the Gallup poll during their failed presidential bids. In other polls, her unfavorable ratings are as much as 12 points higher than those of any other candidate running in either party. Favorability is an imperfect measure of voters’ fondness, because it also captures the way voters think about policy positions, but in surveys that ask specifically about likability, she does horribly. This dim view is confirmed in less-scientific focus groups—and in my notebooks, which are filled with interviews with Democrats, some of whom support her, who express doubts about her electability without any prompting.

    http://slate.com/id/2169159/

  • I hope all voters read this article and put a stop to education voters whom they have to vote for based on cooked up self serving stories about candidates. Thirld world demcrocies voters are far better as they are not inflenced by these polls.
    Some one shoud analyse all these polling methods and people behind it and thier likes and dislikes of candidates and party affiliates. Voters can analyse these and make up thier decison.

  • It’s a shame that news and debate in this country can’t be more honest.

    It’s getting to the point now that political reporting in this country is like the front page of the National Enquirer.

  • I don’t understand why this is so readily being dismissed.

    The sample size was over 9,000. The Gallup poll held up in contrast was 897 people.

    The sample wasn’t ‘random,’ but was comprised of people who had previously volunteered to be polled. This doesn’t bother me. It actually makes more sense to me. These are all likely (not just registered) voters.

    It is often said that the definition of insane is to do the same things repeatedly and expect different results. I think that’s what’s going on here. The ‘credible’ polls have led us astray in the past, but we cling to them in defense of our expectations.

    I believed the polls in 2004. They were wrong. I’m not planning to blindly accept them again when they are using the same methodology that proved wrong then.

  • Anne,

    Zogby is just another insult to our intelligence.

    in all fairness, that should read Zogby Interactive.

  • God I’m glad you posted this. You are absolutely right…so many people wanted that poll to be accurate because it reinforced what they wanted to believe. All I kept reading on other sites was how dangerous it would be if Hillary won the nomination and as Democrats we needed to be forewarned etc. What complete bullshit.
    I even copied and posted your “It looks like Blue Skies Ahead” post from yesterday and mentioned the Gallup poll. There were many others not fooled by that Zogby poll which was encouraging but still so many were already planning how to keep Hillary from winning based on that poll so that dems could win the general…talking about how the repubs would win if Hillary was nominated.

    I support Kucinich but I keep emphasizing that electability is not an issue in this presidential election. Whoever wins the democratic primary will be the next president. After the horrors of Bush and with the present GOP field being such a joke (“We want to do exactly what Bush did only more of it”) whoever the dems nominate will win.
    ALL of the democratic presidential candidates are electable…NONE of the republican presidential candidates are electable, but the press wants to keep making it seem like a close race just to keep the campaign funding profits coming in.

    “Dems are ahead…better make more videos and ads…wait… now repubs are ahead better make more videos and buy more air time…wait …now the dems are ahead again…etc. Election season is Christmas for the MSM and they want to stretch it out as long as possible. Force them to do it for free and watch how short the season becomes or how much time they give then.

    When will dems quit being paranoid and buying into this crap. ELECTABILITY IS NOT AN ISSUE IN THIS PRESIDENTIAL YEAR. Whoever wins the democratic primary will be the next president. Here’s my dream ticket…Kucinich/Edwards ‘08…the truth ticket…the only real change.

  • Hey, I do this Zogby Interactive poll every few weeks and I don’t see the problem with it. It’s not like this is some poll you go to their website and do. Sure, they already know which kinds of people they’re polling and adjust it accordingly, but so do all of the polls. Gallup doesn’t just give us a random sample of people. If they think they’re getting too many of one kind of voter, they adjust their results accordingly, and they do that with every poll. And while that makes sense, I think they miss trends. Plus, landline polls have obvious flaws which cannot be compensated for. At least Zogby has a better idea of who they’re polling.

    Thus said, I think far too much is being put into this one poll. But I don’t see what’s so automatically wrong with how Zogby does it. It’s possible that their poll could be easily rigged by the people they’re polling, but I imagine that it wouldn’t be too hard for them to prevent that. But the main point is that I take the time to do this poll whenever they send me one and don’t like you guys disparaging my efforts. After all, I’m fairly sure that my Zogby vote counts a lot more towards affecting change than my vote on Election Day; particularly here in Texas, where my votes for President and Senate are entirely meaningless. Please don’t upset my delusion.

  • Zogby did a poll with people who were voluteers…online. As much as I love the internet it’s not used as much as the phone. I think the phones are more representative of the diversity in the country whereas volunteers online are usually really into the political world and have a more educated opinion.

    BTW***doubtful…as we later learned Kerry beat Bush in 2004 and would be president were it not for election fraud and Kerry giving in before the votes were accounted for.

    I don’t hold much with any of these polls but I know bullshit when I hear it. Guiliani, Romney, Hukabee over Clinton….Ha! a one legged tap dancer could get more votes than those guys.

  • I first read (and posted here) something similar a couple of months ago:

    http://www.blueoregon.com/2007/09/democratic-cand.html

    While these results still show Clinton beating the GOP candidates, it’s not by as large a margin as John Edwards. While I would look to more reliable sources than Zogby for information, I’m not entirely surprised at those results, either.

  • BTW***doubtful…as we later learned Kerry beat Bush in 2004 and would be president were it not for election fraud and Kerry giving in before the votes were accounted for. -bjobotts

    Had Kerry won by the margins predicted by the polls he’d be President right now. I don’t think a backwards looking tally of a few hundred uncounted votes rectifies a systemic flaw in the methodology of phone polls with absurdly small samples.

    I think the phones are more representative of the diversity in the country whereas volunteers online are usually really into the political world and have a more educated opinion. -bjobotts

    So they’re ahead of the curve and the rest of the country will catch up by October 2008 and Hillary will lose. I also disagree with your assumption that phones are more representative of diversity. Many urban and suburban areas have had significant declines in landlines as cell phones became more prevalent.

    I don’t hold much with any of these polls but I know bullshit when I hear it. -bjobotts

    I do too, which is why I’ve been calling bullshit on all of these polls for a while now. A sample size of a few hundred people is laughable when you’re representing nearly 100 million.

    But I’ve yet to hear any credible evidence or reasoning why this Zogby poll should be dismissed and other polls shouldn’t be. CB is saying this poll was accepted as newsworthy because it sustained their thoeries; I’m believe it is being dismissed because it challenges them.

  • A proper poll wouold draw a random sample from the desired population, which of course is impossible unless the population easily accessible, like the people in a theatre or something. Picking a random sample from all the registered voters in even a town is simply not possible, so every poll has not just statistical uncertainty, but an unknown bias in the methodology.

    That said, I had thought Zogby’s interactive polls contained some semblance of validity, that they weren’t just online surveys. So I admit I didn’t discount the results entirely, even though they defied common sense. And I still don’t see how they could have yielded the results that they did, given the explanation for how the sample was selected. It’s as if somehow the Hillary haters managed to flood the ballot box, got themselves over represented. But how did they manage that? And the results for Obama and Edwards seemed in line with expectations.

    This is very curious.

  • I made the mistake of flipping on Anderson Cooper last night (I couldn’t help it, I was hard up for some news and he was the only thing on at that hour) and absolutely could not believe there were five grown up adult people sitting around talking about that poll with straight faces. I was astounded, even with full knowledge that it was CNN that I was watching. I mean, these are not just ordinary people who just don’t know a damned thing about politics. These are people who presumably get paid non-trivial money to not know a damned thing about politics.

    I did kind of get the impression that Katrina Vanden Heuvel might be doing it on purpose. She got this totally contented look on her face after saying her bit, like she had just taken a really satisfying dump. The rest of them, Gergen, Crowley, and the bald guy, I tend to think maybe really are that ignorant. Of course it goes without saying that Cooper really is that ignorant. He’d be better utilized as a game show host.

  • Zogby botched election 2004 and some credible observers have found a right wing bias in his results. Old people are much more likely to vote than young people, and young people are much more likely to respond to an online/email survey than old people. Polls have to be tied to likely voters to be reality-based.

  • doubtful-
    I say this without any snark: I challenge you to read a statistics textbook. If you did so, you would learn that if the sample is randomly selected (always an if, but no less so with the Zogby poll) it barely matters how big the population in question is; you can get down to a few points of standard deviation with a sample of ~1000. I am dead serious: pick up any elementary stats textbook.

  • doubtful-
    I say this without any snark: I challenge you to read a statistics textbook.
    -Ben

    I reply without snark as well (for a change); I have a degree in psychology, and I was involved with many experiments and completed several statistics classes.

    You may be correct in a ‘vacuum,’ but your assumptions about standard deviation would require a truly random sample. Truly random samples, especially involving people, do not exist.

    Since neither the phone polls or the interactive polls begin with a random sample (and again, I think a voluntary sample is more accurate in this situation since the outcome being measured, voting, is a voluntary action), it stands to reason that a larger sample yields better results.

    My point is that it shouldn’t be easily dismissed because it yielded different results than polls employing other methodologies. What we should be asking, instead of just claiming it is biased or flawed, is what is the difference in the samples and why is that having a dramatic affect on the outcome.

    But I guess it’s just easier to say Zogby sucks.

  • 1. doubtful – Whatever problems exist with the Gallup poll are not caused by the small sample size, but rather by systematic biases. You could cut down the margin of error somewhat by increasing the sample size, but it’s not going to make nearly as big a difference as you think. If a landline-only poll (hypothetically speaking) gets you more democrats than republicans, and that effect shows up with 1,000 samples, it’s going to show up with 10,000 samples too. And regardless, the fact that the country has 100,000,000 (or whatever) potential voters has virtually nothing to do with it.

    2. JKap – Did I ever say landline-only polls were perfect? My point was on sample size alone.

  • Self-selection is the worst possible way of conducting a poll. If you are politically engaged enough to sign up for Zogby Interactive your mindset does not mirror that of the average voter. The very fact that these people knew who Huckabee was makes them outside of the mainstream. Participating in Zogby Interactive is not analogous to choosing to vote because aproximately 50% of the adult population chooses to vote, as opposed to less than 100th of one percent of the adult population choosing to fill out Zogby’s forms to register to participate in his so-called polls. Real polls routinely differentiate between registered voters and likely voters, determined by regularity of voting in the past. A sizeable random sample of likely voters is far more accurate than any group of self-selected political enthusiasts.

  • If a landline-only poll (hypothetically speaking) gets you more democrats than republicans, and that effect shows up with 1,000 samples, it’s going to show up with 10,000 samples too. -Ben

    That’s an assumption that is not necessarily correct. The more samples taken, the more accurate the poll will be. At a certain point it is just redundancy, but I don’t think you’re anywhere near that point when you’re trying to represent a population of over 100 million with a sample of 900.

    And regardless, the fact that the country has 100,000,000 (or whatever) potential voters has virtually nothing to do with it. -Ben

    That’s patently false. You can’t even begin to consider the representation of a sample without knowing the population. Otherwise, your conclusions are meaningless.

    Look at it this way, if I polled 10 people and 8 of them choose A over B, can I assume that 80% of the population will choose A over B? What if the population is 100 people? My poll might carry some weight then. What if the population was 100 thousand poeple? By your assumptions, it doesn’t matter how large the population is compared to my sample size.

  • Participating in Zogby Interactive is not analogous to choosing to vote because aproximately[sic] 50% of the adult population chooses to vote, as opposed to less than 100th of one percent of the adult population choosing to fill out Zogby’s forms to register to participate in his so-called polls. -Dan S

    Let me see if I understand your argument.

    1. 50% of the adult population vote.
    2. Only a fraction of them participate in interactive online polls.
    3. Therefore interactive online polls are invalid.

    Can’t that be applied to all polls? They are always a fraction of the population. This particular poll was much larger than so-called “real polls,” and I would wager nearly everyone polled is a “likely voter.”

    The very fact that these people knew who Huckabee was makes them outside of the mainstream. -Dan S

    He’s actually been rising lately, and should not be dismissed so easily. He was endorsed by Chuck Norris, and as laughable as we think that is, Norris is an internet meme and an icon, and probably responsible for some of Huckabee’s name recognition.

    Of course, there is also the notion that Huckabee garners some support for being the Republican and possibly more from being not Clinton.

    A sizeable[sic] random sample of likely voters is far more accurate than any group of self-selected political enthusiasts. -Dan S

    Self-selection is the worst possible way of conducting a poll. -Dan S

    Show me a political poll with a sizable random sample of likely voters. I’ve never seen one. A few hundred here or there does not a sizable sample make. And aren’t all polls self-selected? I’d be willing to bet that most everyone turns them down when they are called except for the same type politically engaged people answering online polls.

    Until we can read minds or force people to take polls, we’re stuck with self-selection and there is no such thing, except in the world of math, as a truly random sample.

    What we have here is a difference in methodology yielding different results. Instead of dismissing either of them as incorrect, maybe we should look at the samples and compare them and theorize why the results are different. Again, I am shocked that it is just dismissed because the results aren’t in line with other types of polls.

    That just sets people up for the same shock we had in 2004 when the polls said one thing and reality said another.

  • doubtful-

    1. A poll like Gallup is going to have a margin of error around ~3%. Zogby’s will be a little lower than that with a bigger sample. If the two polls aren’t close, then the difference is in the way they do their sampling. It’s not going to arise because of sample size. Both methods are going to be biased, but sample size has nothing to do with it.

    2. The size of the population effectively does not matter. Why? This is why I mentioned a textbook. We’ll simplify, but only a little bit.

    Say we ask 1,000 people if they like Clinton better than Giuliani. Let p be the actual chance that they do (and assume p is close to 50%). Let n be the number of people surveyed. Let N be the whole population. Then the expected value of the measured p value is 0.50, with a standard deviation of:

    [square root of ((p(1-p))/n)] * [square root of ((N-n)/N)]

    As you can see, if N >> n, then (N-n)/N approaches 1 and N (our whole population, say 100,000,000 voters) becomes irrelevant, and only the sample size (n) matters in determining the standard deviation, i.e. how far from 0.50 we end up. And it turns out, as I mentioned above, that with an n of ~1000 we get an acceptably low SD.

    If our poll doesn’t get a p close to 0.50, it’s a problem with our sampling method, not our sample size.

  • In the above post, assume p is exactly 50% (.05), rather than “close to 50%”. It makes the example easier to follow

  • Ben,

    Because we are dealing with nonrandom samples, you cannot apply those equations. As I said before, with a truly random sample, you are correct. However, we’re dealing with two polls, both with nonrandom samples.

    To me, the goal would be to reach the point of saturation or beginning of redundancy, but because there is no formula to determine nonrandom sample sizes it is hard to decide where that is.

    I do understand that there is a marginally small difference between 9000 and 900 when dealing with such a large sample (and frankly, 900 is comparatively large to some other recent polls with just 300-500 people), but I feel it is a step in the right direction towards reaching saturation.

    So, sure, I’d like to know more about the Zogby poll. Where there deviations from the population in any way? Was is nearly all men? Only young people? If we had any of these variables for comparison to the population, we could more confidently trust or mistrust the results, but the same is true for phone polls.

    Ultimately, I feel that what you’re arguing is absolutely correct with a random sample, however, if you’re going to argue that in this case there is no significant difference between 9000 and 900, then (by the equation given) it would also follow there is no significant difference between 900 and 1 and I could poll one person and report it as newsworthy.

  • my name is terry wagar I’m e-mailing you because I’m at a loss as to what i can do about a very dangerous murder conspiracy against me and others, for over 2 and a half years I’ve suffered from this conspiracy, it began { as best as i can tell,} when my wife joan wagar started having a affair with a co-worker named eric carlson, there affair started around April of 2005, i had reason to believe they was trying to kill me back then but i wasnt sure at the time, I’m very very sure now! there is a very interesting fact about eric that joan tried to hide from me and my daughters, he is almost identical in appearance to me! my wife nicknamed him doubleclick, when i learned of my wifes affair i also learned of that nickname and asked joan “why do you call him doubleclick ” she said ” oh thats what everyone calls him at work,” ever since my wife joan insisted her affair was over, it never ended, year and a half all kinds of odd things was happening i started getting very sick from time to time, i suspected she was poisoning me but was not sure at the time, i am now! in early 2006 around Feb or mar i went to the hospital asking to be tested because my wife was talking in her sleep saying she was poisoning me, i went to OHSU and signed in, they informed me that its unlikely that they will find anything but they took my vitals and i waited in the lobby, i waited 4 and a half hours and they never called me back to be checked, and no officers came to question me about my concerns. so i went home, i could tell no one there cared. this is just too long to explain so i will try to get to the point, on march 26th of 2007 at 5;55 am i put a audio recorder in joans purse because i heard my wife whispering to someone in her bedroom, { i slept on the couch, our marriage was falling apart.} i heard what sounded like a guy whispering back, so i put my recorder in her purse expecting to finally catch joan in the act and laid down pretending to still be asleep, ten minutes later my wife left for work, what i caught on there was a lot more than i expected, i caught a murder conspiracy! i didn’t know it right away because the audio i got is like 17 hours long, when i heard on it she was with eric two days later i left her and moved in with my oldest daughter shawna, i spent the next week and a half on and off trying to listen to this audio, it didn’t take long to figure out i was being framed for something by my wife and her lover, and they had help! lots of help, i learned i was under INVESTIGATION BY THE FBI and these INVESTIGATORS were good friends with joan and eric and they all met up at our apartment that morning in joans bedroom, they climbed in through joans window, i learned they were there to frame me as a pedophile, eric was posing for pictures in kayles bedroom,{ our youngest daughter,} while the INVESTIGATOR named ERICA { last name unknown to me.} was taking pictures of him while kayle slept, after words eric climbed out joans window and waited for her in her car, and a john ray climbed in and helped joan put something on our computer and then he left the way he came, joan finished getting ready for work and picked up her purse and left for work, once outside joan was talking to these INVESTIGATORS and discussing what they was going to do next, joan and eric on the ride to work was discussing what they was going to say to other employees when they get there, joan mentioned to eric {you woke her up} referring to kayle, and then they discussed breaking into shawnas apartment with ERICA, after lots of listening to that audio i learned joan eric and erica planed to rape shawna and murder her and then frame me for this! they planed to use a signed check of mine to purchase a gun in my name, remember eric looks almost like me in appearance, eric was going to use my ID and one of my checks to purchase a gun, joan was instructed to collect my sperm, eric was going to rape and murder shawna, erica was going to plant my sperm on shawnas body along with other false evidence, joan and eric met up at walmart along with vickie {joans sister} and the investigators and was waiting at the front door for someone to let them in, other employees showed up and the investigators pretended to have caught me in the act, [ referring to eric in kayles room,} and saying they got me on fotogenic, once inside the investigators proceed to put on a phony show of investigating while in the presence of walmart employees while joan and eric and vickie are trashing my name to there fellow employees turning everyone there against me, joan was even addmeting eric has been impersonating me for other crimes, after hours and hours of the investigators claiming in walmart employees presence that i was doing wrong things and joan and eric telling countless lies about me the investigators gave permission to all of them to pedifie me, joan started printing out flyers about me at walmart,{ unknown to me whether they used them or not.} i learned they had me under a illegal video survealence the hole apartment had hidden cameras and the investigators asked there supervisor to take 6;30 off of joan because john ray broke in there, when i left joan and moved in to my daughters apartment about 3 or 4 days later the FBI took over the apartment above shawna and they proceeded to spread rumors in shawnas neiborhood, and was spying on us as well with hidden cameras, they didn’t know at that time that i knew they were up there, the ceiling in shawnas apartment has no insulation so i could hear them up there talking about editing my audio and discussing ways of killing me, i knew because they are members of authorities i couldn’t get help calling 911, not to mention i was very worried for my family’s safety i was afraid to tell shawna about this at this time for her own safety so i just continued to listen to the audio trying to learn as much about this as i could but for my own safety i pretended to not understand it well, about a week and a half after i left joan on April 7th donna { joans mother who also lives at shawnas apartment complex, } asked shawna if i could go to her apartment to fix her computer she said it wouldn’t work on the Internet, i didn’t want to but shawna insisted so i went over to Donna with shawna and tried to fix her computer, donna offered me a cup of coffee and i accepted, she brought me a cup of coffee and what looked like a mayonaze lid filled with sugar, i put 2 or 3 spoonfuls in my coffee and was sipping while working on her computer, finally i told donna i cant fix it and that maybe she should get a new computer, i drank up my coffee and me and shawna left to go back to shawnas apartment which isn’t far away, by the time i got to the stairs i started not feeling well, once inside i really started feeling very sick and needed to lie down, fifteen minutes later my head felt like there was acid eating away at me from the inside, not thinking clearly i called Joanne asking if she could take me to the hospital, during the drive there joan was looking at her rear view mirror a whole hell of a lot, which gave me the suspicion we were being followed, keep in mind neither joan nor those investigators knew yet that i knew about them, once at the hospital i was so fucked up and hurting in my head that i needed a wheelchair, once i was admitted and taken back to a emergency room i waited and waited and no doctor ever came and examed me, one person came in acting like a doctor but never examed me, he only wanted to put his finger in my ass supposed for a colon test of some sort, but he never asked me what was wrong, never examed my eyes or mouth or ears, never took my vitals, never took a urine sample, i was holding my head in severe pain and all he wanted was to put his finger in my ass, once done he left, a half hour later a male nurse brought me a bottle of something to drink saying i need to drink the whole bottle and then i was going to some room to have a kind of ex ray of some sort, never once did a doctor examine me nor did a doctor come in to explain what was going on, after i drank the bottle the nurse took me to a room for this ex ray then br
    ought me back to my room, about a hour later a doctor came and explained that the only thing they could find wrong was there was a little bleeding in my colon and he recommended i follow up with a colanoscopie, needless to say i was totally shocked at his blatant attempt to ignore the fact that NOBODY EXAMED ME!!! i knew at this time that those investigators had somehow interfered with my medical treatment and done something to prevent a doctor from examine me! i went back to shawnas apartment still in pain in my head, it felt like acid burning in there, and to this day i am still in pain in my head over this, about a week after this i stopped pretending to know nothing about this crap with joan and the investigators and looked up at the ceiling where they were and called them a bunch of criminals and murderers and that i was completely discuss ted with them, shawna was home at this time but didn’t understand why i did that, an hour later shawna left for work and after that all hell broke loose up stairs, a whole lot of people in suits was going up there and there was some yelling and they seemed very angry, a lot of activity going on for the rest of that day in that apartment above shawnas place, at around 8 or 9 that nite several people went up there talking very loudly acting like they were looking at something and said very loudly { yep thats a pedophile alright.} and then him and a few others from that apartment ran out of there yelling at the top of there lungs through out the hole neaborhood calling me a pedophile, from this point on they was pedifieing me openly in shawnas neaborhood, just flat out calling me a pedophile to others in that neaborhood, this hole time i spent most of my time on the floor in pain from donna poisoning me, i flat out knew i could get no help calling 911 since these were people in authority doing this to me, they stopped doing this when shawna was around they didn’t want her to know about it, i told shawna about this but she didn’t believe me because she never witnessed any of it and no one at work mentioned this to her, she believed donna poisoned me but she never understood any of the other stuff, the investigators were quite until shawna left for work and was loud when she left, they would say things like { were going to FUCK you over now you son of a bitch!} i remained in the apartment for about a week after donna poisoned me unable to walk much because of the pain, around this time eric showed up downstairs talking very loudly up at the investigators, { the investigators were on the third floor on the patio and eric was on the ground talking up at them, shawnas app is in between them} and eric was loudly calling me a pedophile and giving my description to others who were out there trying to piss me off, i didn’t go out to confront him because i knew they wanted to shoot me, before he left he yelled up at the investigators telling them to make sure i drink my coffee, keep in mind they weren’t hiding any of there murder attempts from me, after all eric and joan had permission from the authorities to murder me so they just don’t give a shit, i have reason to believe the authorities pressed charges against me and gave my disscription on tv because where ever i go people seem to recognize me, people in shawnas old neaborhood would point over at me and say “there’s the guy they pedified.” ever since i have been under attack behind my back and in front of my face, i learned from that audio that they pedified me in prison so if i get arrested for anything i will likely be murdered in prison, after they poisoned me at some point they broke into shawnas app and replaced my audio with a differant version hoping i would think its the original, i didn’t fall for that,there version is nothing but a death threat against me and shawna and there demonstrating how they plan to frame my hole family and give them the blame for me being poisoned and pedofied, and at the end of it there flat out frameing me as a pedophile using my voice and kayles, although they made the mistake of admitting somewhere in the middle of the audio that there using kayles voice, on there replacement audio they threatened to pedofie shawna if i say something about this, well they already did that, what it amounts to is they tried to kill me and shawna, i caught them in the act , and then they threatened to kill us if i talk about it and then they tried to kill us again, so it does me no good to heed there threats, as far as I’m concerned they murdered me already and there in the process of murdering shawna right now, there have been too many attempts to tell them all on this, let me suffice it to say the other nite joan and a couple of her friends came here to murder me and that plan failed, but there not scared about it because they have some people in authority covering there asses, i write this on November 13th 2007 and at this very moment this apartment is under a illegal video survielence by the FBI, and they allow others over the Internet to spy on us and make fun of us, chances are there going to murder me for sending this because they made it clear there going to cover there asses, but thats why i saved the best for last.
    p.s. the address where this ocured is 8800 se causey loop n-205 clackamas OR 97086, the whole neaberhood there has heard of this and the authorities used a warrant to kick out the tenants above shawnas apartment

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